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Frazzled wrote:I love how quickly this thread went into America evil mode. Its almost like it started out like that.

I hope I am not coming across as 'America is evil' I am mearly trying to illustrate America is the same as any other nation that has existed, no better, no worse (well some things about us may be better while others are worse).

Don't worry. I think you're coming across pretty clearly.

Frazzled beat me to the point about Spain and their friendly treatment of new world indigenous cultures. As bad, if not worse, than America.

This argument is silly, though.

Frazzled wrote:I love how quickly this thread went into America evil mode. Its almost like it started out like that.

Yep lots of people hate America. They'll tell you about it all day long on the internet...while eating McDonald's....and wearing Niki...after having just watched matrix on blu ray...and right before leaving to watch the new terminator movie in 3d at the theatre.

In fact more and more everyday,it seems many other countries are becoming more like America. Heck isn't there a euro Disney?

I didn't realize "America is not a shining example of virtue." is the same statement as "America is evil."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

thedude wrote:As I have said before, if you follow your logic through a fortiori, then the 9/11 deaths where justified and ironically so were some of the horendous attrociaties committed by Japan against US soldiers.

A fortiori is only a claim to certainty when rendering the implicit explicit.

Edit: meh nevermind

History shows that military forces lacking in discipline are almost bound to commit atrocities. It amuses me that you think US servicemen would be the exception.

First of all the discipline of the Japanese soldier throughout history is very very strong. To say the things like The rape of Nanking happened because of a lack of discipline is pure revisionist history. Japanese officers were known to kill soldiers that showed any lack of discipline or respect to their superiors.

If you believe that US service men are by and large capable of such actions, then I will again ask you for proof. My Lai happened, yep, sure did, it was a tragedy. But that was a small group of soldiers in a remote area and they killed 500 people. I'm sure that there were other events also, but this seams to be the largest. To even try to compare that to the routine actions of the Japanese military is farcical.

You attempt to compare a few rogue action that are obvious exceptions with numerous cases of wholesale slaughter that were a regular part of the Japanese military doctrine. Delusional!

If you can't find the post that's your problem, it's there look for Jesus, Osama and white supremists! It's all there.

Sums you up to a T.

Really the fact that you are too lazy to go through the post and read the numerous (at least twice) times I replied to 911 shows that you really have no interest in doing any research. It's probably why you don't think the Japanese were such bad guys.

@Andrew, you continue to ignore facts of history and simple truisms of human nature to support your crazy imperialst stance. You are a hypocrit because you warp your opinion around what history you cannot distort. As I have said before, if you follow your logic through a fortiori, then the 9/11 deaths where justified and ironically so were some of the horendous attrociaties committed by Japan against US soldiers. Your mind set is the exact same as those who you argue against and call monsters.

Elaborate than please! I've stated many cases of despicable and institutional actions of the Japanese, you've come back with nothing. How have I said anything that was remotely Imperialist? I'm a not interventionist libertarian, I've never preached imperialism....ever. Only you have compared the bombs with 911. There is no correlation between the two except that civilians died. The fact that you can somehow even compare the two is beyond belief. As far as Japanese treatment of US soldiers, you are just showing that you have absolutely no grasp on the situation. That you can somehow justify the execution of US soldiers than honorably surrendered is completely out of line!

I've never said all civilian reprisals were good! With rare exceptions we didn't need to do it in Germany, Italy or anywhere else for that matter, when we did it it was usually against partisans. The Japanese people put themselves on the front lines. There are old Japanese films of the Japanese civilians training with weapons in preparation for the final invasion. They blurred the lines between civilians and soldiers, not the Allies.

How do you reconcile the US waged war on Iraq? Our state occupied a foriegn nation stating we had evidence to support our occupation when we did not. The civilian death toll from this war is put around 90k-150k depending where you are looking. The US military casulaties are nearing 6k. Oh wait, let me guess, Sadam is evil? So whatever we do is justified right?

I'm no fan of the Gulf wars as I'm not an interventionist and we were never directly attacked. However just because I wouldn't have done it doesn't mean it wasn't justified. Saddam flaunted UN inspections, used bio weapons on the Kurds and invaded a sovereign nation, his soldiers looted and raped and murdered in Kuwait. But you seam to think that's ok unless a few US soldiers step out of line and do it. Abu Garab? Really, nothing in comparison. I'll take waterboarding any day over the actions of the Japanese.

Your numbers show the civilian casualty count. How many of those got blown up by terrorists? How many of those were terrorists in plain clothes? Where are the institutional atrocities on the scale that was common place in the Japanese military?

How about the Guatamalan Coup d'etat? The US backed over throw of democratically elected government that led to series of US backed brutal dictators that caused enormous civil unrest and destabilization with almost half a century of turmoil and a death toll projected at almost 200,000.

Keep grasping at straws. Were those US soldiers doing that? No, so it's not really the same thing at all. So now the US is responsible for the actions of every soldier or regime that they supply with support. That's pretty much every country in the world. I suppose then we are responsible for the Pakistani's hiding Osama because we provide Pak with money. Seriously

I have not found one person on this thread who puts the lives of their soldiers below the lives of the enemy as you continue to imply. That would be nonsense.

There are plenty of examples of people asking if Japanese lives were worth less than American lives in this thread. You just like Emperors faithful have been to lazy TO READ THE THREAD!


You guys can stock your guilt and Anti-American sentiments elsewhere.

While I have not read every post of this thread, I still will throw in my two cents.

My grandfather (RIP) was stationed in occupied Japan after the bombs went off. He helped reestablish the radio and phones systems.

He never really talked about what he saw. He wouldn't, even if you tried to pry him. It was because it was the most horrible thing anyone could ever imagine, and any person who can even be spared the thought of imagining what it was like should be.

The Japanese were so filled with propaganda that you cannot blame them for the way things were. They were told that Americans would rape and kill any prisoner, and worse. These ideas were hammered into every Japanese person; it's no wonder they committed the atrocities that they did.

Gramps said it was the worst possible thing to ever inflict upon those people, but it was the ONLY way to get them out of the war. Their emperor had the power to surrender but he did not. He could of stopped it from happening but he didn't.

/rant


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While we're on the topic of USA war crimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#United_States

The Japanese were so filled with propaganda that you cannot blame them for the way things were. They were told that Americans would rape and kill any prisoner, and worse. These ideas were hammered into every Japanese person; it's no wonder they committed the atrocities that they did.

They expected that because their culture demanded it, that was how wars were to be fought, hence their treatment of everyone else.

While we're on the topic of USA war crimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#United_States

If that's it in total then it doesn't compare to anything that the Japanese did in one case of Nanking, never mind the numerous other accounts both documented and non documented.

deleted by Manchu

thedude wrote:deleted by Manchu

Reported. Bad form. Bad form indeed.

Andrew, you've missed the point. Oh well.

Frazzled wrote:
Reported.

This is clearly something Frazzled would never do.

edited by Manchu

nectarprime wrote: It was because it was the most horrible thing anyone could ever imagine

I don't know, Nanking and Auschwitz weren't a cake walk. Or, as Han would say, "I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit". Perhaps trying to create a false taxonimy isn't the best argument to be made.

Ahtman wrote:

nectarprime wrote: It was because it was the most horrible thing anyone could ever imagine

I don't know, Nanking and Auschwitz weren't a cake walk. Or, as Han would say, "I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit". Perhaps trying to create a false taxonimy isn't the best argument to be made.

I wasn't trying to say that those atrocities were any better or worse, I apologize. And did you mean "taxonomy"? :p

He never really talked about what he saw. He wouldn't, even if you tried to pry him. It was because it was the most horrible thing anyone could ever imagine, and any person who can even be spared the thought of imagining what it was like should be.

If he didn't talk about it then how do you know why he was silent? Maybe he was silent because before he was posted on the Island he saw the horrors of the Japanese first hand like many of the Vets that I know. I'm not going to say hearsay, but did he ever actually say that he thought the bomb was the worst thing ever and the Japanese didn't deserve it? Just about every pacific vet I know thinks the Japanese got off easy.

nectarprime wrote:And did you mean "taxonomy"? :p

I did. Occasionally a typo appears. Occasionally.

Ahtman wrote:

nectarprime wrote: It was because it was the most horrible thing anyone could ever imagine

I don't know, Nanking and Auschwitz weren't a cake walk. Or, as Han would say, "I don't know, I can imagine quite a bit". Perhaps trying to create a false taxonimy isn't the best argument to be made.

DUde, I've been to the D M V ! I've seen man, I've seen.

I know the conversation is moving on, but I wanted to take a moment and apologize to the forum. My previous posts was out of line. There is no need for insults in a friendly gaming forum.

thedude wrote:I know the conversation is moving on

If only. This is pretty much the exact same conversation we had last time this exact same topic was raised. Nothing has progressed in the slightest.

Having read the entire thing, I think we've made the opposite of progress.

Monster Rain wrote:Having read the entire thing, I think we've made the opposite of progress.

Just like last time.

Monster Rain wrote:Having read the entire thing, I think we've made the opposite of progress.

Major Parties:

Side A: Dropping the bomb was bad.

Side B: Dropping the bomb was necessary.

Minor Parties:

Side C: Dropping the bomb was good.

Side D: Dropping the bomb is what happened.

Trolls:

Side E: We should nuke more countries.

Side F: The Japanese were evil.

Side G: America is evil too.

Side H: Evil is a stupid concept.

Side I: Something about terrorists, and racism.

Well what would you call progress? I think realizing it was a necessary and regrettable act is about as far as you can take it.

Well, I think you can go a bit further regarding why it was necessary, but most people don't like being confronted with the idea that necessity is determined by desire; particularly when the thing being discussed is unpalatable.

dogma wrote:Well, I think you can go a bit further regarding why it was necessary, but most people don't like being confronted with the idea that necessity is determined by desire; particularly when the thing being discussed is unpalatable.

That sentence also applies to White Castle.

I think that, by making cultural comparisons and kill-counts, we really miss the idea the US had in mind:
"We have the best bomb EVAR. We're fighting a war."

I don't think anyone put any moral thought. It was just cold logic.

But yeah, it's a disintegrating thread.

Lock?

Kasrkai wrote:I don't think anyone put any moral thought.

They did, we have documents.

I thought that documentation got lost?

The Japanese had it all filled out and ready to go so that they could surrender but the damn dog chewed it to smithereens.

Any loss of innocent human life is a tragedy! Undeniably. War tends to be a dirty. Even with all the excuses, its hard if not impossible to justify nuking children, that is a fact. Given that humans are imperfect, it's hard to come up with a perfect situation, especially during war. All things considered I think it was the best all around choice, to an untenable situation. In the situation Best idea might be better than good idea. I think the only thing one can do is weight the good and the bad of the situation, through that analysis I can only conclude it was necessary and the best idea. Many many lives were saved, not just in Japan, the US, and Russia.

The lessons learned from WWII in general and the bombs specifically has had a major effect on the world. We live in a time of relative peace and international cooperation unseen in the history of the world. I personally believe it's because we stared into the face of annihilation and decided there must be a better way to deal with each other in the future.