Warmachine and WH 40K

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**frozenwastes**

PhantomViper wrote:
Also, two Cygnar players also won 2 tournaments in that list without even having Haley2 in their lineup. She is such a dominating caster that she doesn't even have to be in the list to make Cygnar win tournaments!

During the WTC, out of 84 matches played involving Haley2, she achieved an astounding 51,2% win ratio. For such a powerhouse caster that manages to win games no matter the skill of the opposition, she sure does lose allot!

Since we know she doesn't even have to be in the list to make Cygnar win tournaments we can also assume that in the half or so of the games where they play her and lose, it was some other caster that contributed the loss. Perhaps a Darius sitting on a shelf somewhere contributed the loss.

**melkorthetonedeaf**

Sir TidyBowl resents that comment.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This whole thread has really got me scratching my head as to why WMH didn't catch on in my town. There are so many dudes who play 40k full-on competitively but get miffed about the rules, there's an oddly strong following for Heroclix, and everyone plays MTG. It's not quite *The Dojo*, but WMH is pretty much the perfect game for some of these people.

I just like painting elves.

**MWHistorian**

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Sir TidyBowl resents that comment.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
This whole thread has really got me scratching my head as to why WMH didn't catch on in my town. There are so many dudes who play 40k full-on competitively but get miffed about the rules, there's an oddly strong following for Heroclix, and everyone plays MTG. It's not quite *The Dojo*, but WMH is pretty much the perfect game for some of these people.

I just like painting elves.

Because the ubiquitous nature of 40k. Everyone else plays it so everyone plays it. That's changing, but slowly. Also, sometimes people aren't willing to give something new a try.

**Breng77**

That is part of it, part of it is also the fluff, outside of game support for the IP of 40k. Lots of people know the game, and if you have a big community it is easier to join a community than start one.

Throw in the "I've already invested hundreds on this game." factor and you have a lot of people that play 40k.

**PhantomViper**

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

I just like painting elves.

You also have Elves in WMH... Join the Dark Side, we are nothing like zlayer77's "Dojo", I promise!

**MWHistorian**

PhantomViper wrote:
melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

I just like painting elves.

You also have Elves in WMH... Join the Dark Side, we are nothing like zlayer77's "Dojo", I promise!

Thank Dagon we're not. If my FLGS was like that Dojo, I'd stick to video games where preteens don't shout racial slurs over the mic.

**Runic**

PhantomViper wrote:

I also particularly like your posting history on the PP forums where you not only admit that you have no idea what the current state of the game actually is (something that is more than readily apparent to anyone that actually plays the game when they read your posts here)

I´ve stated on 2 different threads here that I have been on a break for some time now, your point therefore is? Next to that I am quite aware of the current state of the game, I merely made a thread inwhich I asked peoples own opinions regarding what they think are the top tier Warcasters of different factions currently, and why.

PhantomViper wrote:
RunicFIN wrote:

Are you a teenager? Why would anyone lie about playing a game? I´ve played since 2007 like I said, proof here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420/608128.page

In any case you can from here on out be quiet about my lack of experience with WM/H, as I apparently out-experience you in said game.

Ahahahah! I've been playing WMH since 2003 and your trolling attempts are getting more desperate by the minute.

How is it trolling to find it dumb to think someone would lie about playing a game? Your comments that completely seem to sweep the rock-paper-scissors factor under the rug just make you appear like someone who only started the game a year ago max.

PhantomViper wrote:

So what is it? Is WMH one of the most balanced game that exists or is it so unbalanced that simple warcaster pairings can decide the game before it even starts?

It is one of the most balanced games out there and simultaneously certain matchups can absolutely decimate others. Competitive WM/H has a strong rock-paper-scissors -aspect going for it. Have fun accepting this fact ( which you already probably know, but are refusing to admit for god knows what reason. ) If you claim I said WM/H is unbalanced, copypaste that bit to me, or I will consider your claim concessed automatically.

PhantomViper wrote:

Also, just because I'm hating my job at the moment, regarding your Haley2 comment:

Lets take a look at some actual data, shall we?

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/

Haley2 won 3 major tournaments this year (out of 33 reported tournaments, such a powerhouse!). And curiously enough, all of the Haley2 lists used to win those tournaments were different from each other... So where is this dominating "netdeck tournament list" that somehow doesn't win more than one tournament?

Also, two Cygnar players also won 2 tournaments in that list without even having Haley2 in their lineup. She is such a dominating caster that she doesn't even have to be in the list to make Cygnar win tournaments!

Lets look at some more numbers...

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?212314-Crunching-some-WTC-results-numbers-and-I-had-a-question

During the WTC, out of 84 matches played involving Haley2, she achieved an astounding 51,2% win ratio. For such a powerhouse caster that manages to win games no matter the skill of the opposition, she sure does loose allot!

I said she dominates certain matchups and builds, I didn´t say she dominates tournaments around the globe. If you pit 2 highly skilled players against eachother, the one who is suffering from having a bad matchup is very, very likely to lose. Are you just taking things out of context on purpose? And if so, what purpose does that serve for you?

**slowthar**

Backfire wrote:
slowthar wrote:
Another lesson I learned from this thread: An immature person (or group of people) is immature to matter what game they play.

Being exclusionary for the sake of chest-beating and talking about how badass you are is a sad state to be in, no matter what the activity. Human beings should strive to be better than that.

Well actually I almost get where that guy is coming from. If one likes a competive, 'tough' environment where everything is fair game, who am I to say that is wrong way to enjoy the hobby? I say all wargaming is good wargaming. Now, obviously, it shouldn't happen at the expense of mocking and shutting out other gamers who are not into that style of environment.

I haven't played WM/H, but I was into MtG big time in the '90s, but I jumped out as I saw that the field was moving almost exclusively to tournament scene. Tournament players, decks and games just weren't fun, in my opinion. Sure enough, they featured great competition and good players, but it was all very mechanical, very 'dry' (and surprisingly enough, IMO many of the players weren't even that good: their understanding of the core dynamics of the game was weak and they mostly thought in the terms of getting killer cards and combos to their decks). Also, MtG design was increasingly moving towards combination mechanics, where you attempt to link several cards or effects for force multiplier-type effects to gain huge 'cliff edge' advantage. This is, by the way, also how FFG designs some of their games, and I think it's pretty weak way of game design. I know everyone does not agree and some people are really into that type of mechanics, but for me, ruletechnic gimmickry is no substitute for strategy or maneuvering. Best MtG games were such where both sides had huge arrays of creatures, defensive enchanchments, artifacts etc. and you tried to figure out the best way to employ your creatures' abilities, first strikes, banding, etc and whatever cards you had in hand to maximize your gains. Worst games were those where other player got his combo in play and you were locked down and all you could do was to hope to draw that Disenchant or Crumble which would allow you to knock off the keystone card which kept the combo together. Of course such combinatorics are possible in 40k too (especially true in 6th edition Ally system!) but it's not anywhere as common, at least not in casual environment.

I don't know how it is in WM/H, but one thing I like in 40k is that comeback victories are very possible. In hex wargames I've played, if you conceded early advantage, you were generally toast as the opponent would just keep pressing on and getting stronger. Same goes for MtG duels: sure sometimes you managed to crawl back, but most of the time not. It happened more often in multiplayer games where tempo was usually slower, but most players didn't care for them. In fact 40k sometimes feels even too lenient in this respect, in that it's sometimes unfair that the dominant player lost the victory because other guy rolled '6' for Run and then '2' for ending game on 5th turn...this was especially true in 5th edition BRB missions.

Yeah, I know where he's coming from, too, and I think it's a bad place. Not because a game can't/shouldn't be played competitively, but specifically because they're being intentionally exclusive and pushing away newcomers. They also appear to encourage and thrive on poor sportsmanship and just a generally unpleasant playing experience.

I also played MtG in the 90s, too, and I was pretty competitive about it. I was a teenager back then, and I think playing it in tournaments environment taught me a lot about sportsmanship and not being a dick. I could sit down as a 15 year-old across from a 35 year-old and know I was going to beat the piss out of him. The immature route would be to be cocky, mock him openly, rules-lawyer, etc. The mature route, and one I hopefully learned, is to be friendly and sportsmanlike. This is already going to be a lousy match for him; what's the benefit to me of making it worse besides falsely inflating my own ego?

And yes, comeback victories are possible in WMH, mostly due to the "caster kill" rule. Learning how to negotiate that is part of learning the game's learning curve. On the whole, I like the game better: I like the more concise rules, faster turns, better balance, and less random feel the game has. Although, I also don't really have a group to play 40k with anymore; I think 40k could be a lot of fun as well with the right group of people in the same way that people have a D&D group.

**FoWPlayerDeathOfUS.TDs**

I prefer warmachine much more to WH 40K. I tried 40K for a few months, but if I wanted to play casually it was a pain with the rules and if I wanted to play competitively I would face a Tau Railcannon line half the time and a imperial guards gun line the other half.

I think that the way my FLGS plays is just like my local chess club. Lots of banter and jokes, smiles all around, and going to play for the kill. Our casual games are kind of like competitive games, without the death clock. I think I played stakov with a spriggan and winterguard deathstar as one of my first games there!(it was really fun actually)

**melkorthetonedeaf**

PhantomViper wrote:
melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

I just like painting elves.

You also have Elves in WMH... Join the Dark Side, we are nothing like zlayer77's "Dojo", I promise!

I own bloodtrackers, striders and mage hunters! Can i go unbound in WMH?

**wuestenfux**

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

I just like painting elves.

You also have Elves in WMH... Join the Dark Side, we are nothing like zlayer77's "Dojo", I promise!

I own bloodtrackers, striders and mage hunters! Can i go unbound in WMH?

There are some rules about army composition in WMH, which basically concern only warcasters.
In smaller games, you can just take one. In larger games, two or more are allowed. See the rule booklet.
In tourneys up to 50 pts you play with one caster.

**frozenwastes**

I think he was asking about playing units from three different factions at once. I'd play against it without a second thought, but I think most WM/H players would not.

**melkorthetonedeaf**

I was just goofin. I don't play anymore, but I had to keep some of the models.

One of the things I hear about 40k/Fantasy people is that Warmachine/Hordes doesn't offer enough customization of units, but the sheer number of options (some better than others) in GW games makes my little old head spin.

**zlayer77**

PhantomViper wrote:
melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

I just like painting elves.

You also have Elves in WMH... Join the Dark Side, we are nothing like zlayer77's "Dojo", I promise!

The fact that I made my post to get peoples attention to "WHY", "douchebags", "Power Gaming" and "screaming" does not effect the gameplay of Warmachine/hordes, and people directly assume that when this happens it "ruins gamplay" illustrated my point really well I think..

The people who play 40k do not understand that as soon as a game gets balanced, "YOU DO NOT GET FRUSTRATED AND PISSED OFF AT PEOPLE", But in a broken game like 40k "YOUR GAME GETS RUINED AND YOU GET ANGRY AND FRUSTRATED ALL THE TIME", so you have to house rule, and ask people is this OK, can i play this.. Or you tone stuff down so that you don't come off as a power gaming "JACK ASS".. This is not a good way to play a game it is not a healthy way to play a game...

READ MY POSTS all of them... I'm sorry that i have to "push your buttons" to get you to respond but the Facts are, you do not get frustrated playing a blanced game... And Even if you scream in horror over what just happend, you can then go back and find a counter for that move... IN 40k you might need to shelf your whole army and buy a new one to stay competetive...

And the dude who ran a way, was just the type of who has the ingrained 40k mentality that is a cancer in the gaming hobby today. He ran away Because he saw that we dident play 40k and after talking with us he understood that we would never ever play 40k and WHFB again in our lives.. WHY? because we do not like to get angry and frustraded .. We like to have fun in our Mental DOJO. But nobody really gets uppset outside the game and there are no lingering hard feelings, because you can't get mad at people for being better at a game then you are.. Unless you are the jealous type. I find that many people who stick with 40k are the people who do not really enjoy balanced games, because they cant "HANDLE THE TRUTH", that they actually suck at Tactics, and need the Hand holding of random broken rules to have a chans of winning anything...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I was just goofin. I don't play anymore, but I had to keep some of the models.

One of the things I hear about 40k/Fantasy people is that Warmachine/Hordes doesn't offer enough customization of units, but the sheer number of options (some better than others) in GW games makes my little old head spin.

This is true.. If someone had bothered reading what i wrote before, I pointed out that 40k is an experince, from the moment you bring your new stuff home.. You pick and chose the stuff, and you also build it...In Warmachine you pick up the box and spend allot less time assembling it.. And the Unit you are using is always "Optimized".. In 40k you have to do your own Optimization(find the most broken stuff and Ower powerd things in your list etc)...

Lots of Customization leads to unbalanced combos.. And 40k really shines in that department (I would say it is the most Unbalanced and broken game on the market). WHY? because that is the way GW sells more miniatures, all the new shiny stuff is always better then what came before.. It is a market strategi to sell more armies.. that is FACT!

**Breng77**

The people who play 40k do not understand that as soon as a game gets balanced, "YOU DO NOT GET FRUSTRATED AND PISSED OFF AT PEOPLE", But in a broken game like 40k "YOUR GAME GETS RUINED AND YOU GET ANGRY AND FRUSTRATED ALL THE TIME", so you have to house rule, and ask people is this OK, can i play this.. Or you tone stuff down so that you don't come off as a power gaming "JACK ASS".. This is not a good way to play a game it is not a healthy way to play a game...

The first statment here is incorrect. You can still get frustrated and pissed off at jerks in any game, sore losers, poor winners, and bad sportsman (which reading your posts it seems like your group is full of. This may not be the case, but it is the impression you give.). Balance does not forgive being a jerk. However, I agree that in 40k your game can get ruined really easily and you frequently need to self police to make that not the case. Which can work fine if everyone involved is ok with it, but the game straight out of the rules is a horrible experience quite often.

And the dude who ran a way, was just the type of who has the ingrained 40k mentality that is a cancer in the gaming hobby today. He ran away Because he saw that we dident play 40k and after talking with us he understood that we would never ever play 40k and WHFB again in our lives.. WHY? because we do not like to get angry and frustraded .. We like to have fun in our Mental DOJO. But nobody really gets uppset outside the game and there are no lingering hard feelings, because you can't get mad at people for being better at a game then you are.. Unless you are the jealous type. I find that many people who stick with 40k are the people who do not really enjoy balanced games, because they cant "HANDLE THE TRUTH", that they actually suck at Tactics, and need the Hand holding of random broken rules to have a chans of winning anything...

Again reading your previous posts this is not how it came across, rather that he walked in saw a buch of guys acting like in your face d-bags, and decided not to be part of it. Might not be the case, but that is how you presented it. The constant berating of players of other games also does not reflect well on the WM/H community and it turns people off. I know it is a very small part of that community, but it hurts the game in general.

Lots of Customization leads to unbalanced combos.. And 40k really shines in that department (I would say it is the most Unbalanced and broken game on the market). WHY? because that is the way GW sells more miniatures, all the new shiny stuff is always better then what came before.. It is a market strategi to sell more armies.. that is FACT!

Agree that lots of customization makes balance harder, and as such with lazy game design leads to unbalanced combos. The idea that GW does it by plan to sell models is anything but a fact. In fact it is provably false, they just suck at rules design. Want proof look at some new models at codex release, and just as many are terrible as are broken. Also plenty of older models get broken rules, even models everyone owns.

IF you were to look at current 40k stuff for powerful or broken stuff and horrible stuff

Here is some powerful stuff
Imperial Knights - New
Wave Serpents - old and people had a ton already in many cases
Wraith Knights - New
Ridptides - New
Broadsides - old and people owned a bunch
Hive Tyrants- Old
Fateweaver - old
Daemon Princes - Old
....

And look at some bad stuff
Dark Angel Flyers - new at codex release
Deathwing Knights- new at codex release
Tau Flyers- New at codex release
Pyrovores- have been terrible since model release
Mandrakes- always bad, new models did not change this
Haruspex kit- Meh pretty bad
Warp Talons
Mutlilators

So they put out as many bad new units as good ones in general...it is not a marketing strategy (rotating balance between factions might be), it is horrible game design.

**Talizvar**

zlayer77 wrote:
This is true.. If someone had bothered reading what i wrote before, I pointed out that 40k is an experince, from the moment you bring your new stuff home.. You pick and chose the stuff, and you also build it...

Yeah, I agree. One squad of marines can be VERY different from another in capability depending on what you kit them up with.
This is why WYSIWYG is so important because every standard/choice unit is it's own snowflake.
No other game makes me agonize more over using magnets or just glue the darn thing on.

In Warmachine you pick up the box and spend allot less time assembling it.. And the Unit you are using is always "Optimized"..

Yes, I noticed the units are "standard" and you throw-in an attachment to change some capabilities.
This is why I find many Warmahordes armies not painted since the units and their capabilities are easily spotted / understood.

In 40k you have to do your own Optimization(find the most broken stuff and over powered things in your list etc)...

It allows the "flavor of the month" and create the new hot models with the appropriate markup.
I have seen many instances of glee on the face of the player being one of the first to take out for a spin the most recent OP/broken army after some kind of update.

**Las**

God, based on that ^ post wm/h sounds awful. Just play magic ffs

"The miniature game makes me model miniatures!"

**frozenwastes**

Las wrote:
God, based on that ^ post wm/h sounds awful. Just play magic ffs

"The miniature game makes me model miniatures!"

I read the last two posts and I'm not sure which one you are referring to or what your point is.

There is something to be said for a miniatures game that's good enough to get people wanting to play it even if they don't like building and painting miniatures. That'd definitely be a sign of quality game design to be able to bridge that sales barrier.

I agree that as a game for people not interested in miniatures, MTG is superior to both 40k and WM/H, but other than that, your post makes no sense.

**Las**

If you don't like painting and modeling miniatures then don't play games that require painting and modeling.

Also, saying mtg is superior to 40k/wmh is like saying Mario kart is superior to those things. Apples and oranges.

**wuestenfux**

Las wrote:
If you don't like painting and modeling miniatures then don't play games that require painting and modeling.

Also, saying mtg is superior to 40k/wmh is like saying Mario kart is superior to those things. Apples and oranges.

Well, we have also players here who don't paint their models. Just gamers.
Not sure if it's just apples and oranges.
Both games have very different sides, like rule set and competitive play.

**frozenwastes**

Las wrote:
If you don't like painting and modeling miniatures then don't play games that require painting and modeling.

I agree that for many, painting and modelling is the core act of their hobbies, but this is by no means universal. Lots of people like to pay others to build and paint their miniatures and prioritize other factors over painting miniatures. Or (sadly in my opinion) are willing to accept bare metal or primered only armies.

Also, saying mtg is superior to 40k/wmh is like saying Mario kart is superior to those things. Apples and oranges.

That's why I qualified it by saying for those who aren't into miniatures. And yes, Mario Kart too would probably be a better bet than 40k or WFB if you aren't into miniatures. Now if you're into miniatures enough (which means something different person to person), then it would no longer be the case.

If a game is good enough that people who aren't into miniatures still want to play it, that seems like a vote of confidence in the game in terms of game design. So WM/H sounds pretty good from that perspective. It's good enough that people who don't really care for miniatures are still interested in it. That's a success in terms of game design.

Honestly, 40k used to be like that too. I'd say that during the last couple years of 3rd edition and most of 4th, the game was good enough that I knew lots of people who played it even though they hated painting and building miniatures. The game was solid and people really enjoyed it for the game experience alone. This has largely faded though and now the "game first" people are far better off pretty much doing anything other than 40k. It's sad how 40k's game quality and player base has contracted since the height of GW's success in the early to mid 00s.

.

**zlayer77**

frozenwastes wrote:
Las wrote:
If you don't like painting and modeling miniatures then don't play games that require painting and modeling.

Honestly, 40k used to be like that too. I'd say that during the last couple years of 3rd edition and most of 4th, the game was good enough that I knew lots of people who played it even though they hated painting and building miniatures. The game was solid and people really enjoyed it for the game experience alone. This has largely faded though and now the "game first" people are far better off pretty much doing anything other than 40k. It's sad how 40k's game quality and player base has contracted since the height of GW's success in the early to mid 00s.

First to Las; sadly many people do no enjoy the painting, they like to play table top games but they are not into the hobby side of things..

Sedond to frozenwastes; I agree 100% with what you wrote. I would also like to add that GW looks to be oblivious to the fact that people often get into the hobby as a group of friends.. And in that group there are always people who just join because of the game aspect.. I would say that the people who love the Hobby side, painting and modelling are the miniority.. Most people pick up Table top Games for the GAME aspect, not for painting miniatures... That is why GW is doomed in the long run unless they start changing thier ways,,

**frozenwastes**

zlayer77 wrote:

Sedond to frozenwastes; I agree 100% with what you wrote. I would also like to add that GW looks to be oblivious to the fact that people often get into the hobby as a group of friends.. And in that group there are always people who just join because of the game aspect.. I would say that the people who love the Hobby side, painting and modelling are the miniority.. Most people pick up Table top Games for the GAME aspect, not for painting miniatures... That is why GW is doomed in the long run unless they start changing thier ways,,

WM/H definitely stands on it's own merits when it comes to rules. I know the largest volume customer at the local store definitely is driven by gaming desires rather than miniature desires. If a new NQ tier list comes out and he thinks it's cool, he'll buy it, spray it with an army painter spray of the majority colour, paint the base black and give the figure a black wash and a coat of varnish. I would never call a miniature that's a solid colour with a wash done, but he's in it for the game and a washed & sprayed model is easier to tell apart than bare metal/plastic or primer. I think he makes a new 50pt army every month or two this way.

Back in the late 3rd days he was doing the same thing with 40k armies. Now all that money is going away from GW to PP.

**wuestenfux**

frozenwastes wrote:
zlayer77 wrote:

Sedond to frozenwastes; I agree 100% with what you wrote. I would also like to add that GW looks to be oblivious to the fact that people often get into the hobby as a group of friends.. And in that group there are always people who just join because of the game aspect.. I would say that the people who love the Hobby side, painting and modelling are the miniority.. Most people pick up Table top Games for the GAME aspect, not for painting miniatures... That is why GW is doomed in the long run unless they start changing thier ways,,

WM/H definitely stands on it's own merits when it comes to rules. I know the largest volume customer at the local store definitely is driven by gaming desires rather than miniature desires. If a new NQ tier list comes out and he thinks it's cool, he'll buy it, spray it with an army painter spray of the majority colour, paint the base black and give the figure a black wash and a coat of varnish. I would never call a miniature that's a solid colour with a wash done, but he's in it for the game and a washed & sprayed model is easier to tell apart than bare metal/plastic or primer. I think he makes a new 50pt army every month or two this way.

Back in the late 3rd days he was doing the same thing with 40k armies. Now all that money is going away from GW to PP.

This is an interesting guy.
Modeling of PP figures seems to be a bit more of a problem than in 40k due to the different plastic and metal miniatures.

**frozenwastes**

wuestenfux wrote:

This is an interesting guy.

There's a good 10 or so WM/H players locally who don't paint their miniatures at all. Or clean mould lines or anything. While I think a few more hours of work would make his spray and wash look even better, I'd rather play against that than the bare metal and plastic.

I've been trying to get the 10 or so who never paint to pick it up, even if all they do his adopt his spray and wash technique, but I haven't succeeded yet.

Modeling of PP figures seems to be a bit more of a problem than in 40k due to the different plastic and metal miniatures.

40k is definitely a better choice if someone only cares about miniatures and not playing games. There are some great PP sculpts though and if a person doesn't care about gaming, they might as well pick the best up from any given range to paint.

**Toofast**

wuestenfux wrote:
frozenwastes wrote:
zlayer77 wrote:

Sedond to frozenwastes; I agree 100% with what you wrote. I would also like to add that GW looks to be oblivious to the fact that people often get into the hobby as a group of friends.. And in that group there are always people who just join because of the game aspect.. I would say that the people who love the Hobby side, painting and modelling are the miniority.. Most people pick up Table top Games for the GAME aspect, not for painting miniatures... That is why GW is doomed in the long run unless they start changing thier ways,,

WM/H definitely stands on it's own merits when it comes to rules. I know the largest volume customer at the local store definitely is driven by gaming desires rather than miniature desires. If a new NQ tier list comes out and he thinks it's cool, he'll buy it, spray it with an army painter spray of the majority colour, paint the base black and give the figure a black wash and a coat of varnish. I would never call a miniature that's a solid colour with a wash done, but he's in it for the game and a washed & sprayed model is easier to tell apart than bare metal/plastic or primer. I think he makes a new 50pt army every month or two this way.

Back in the late 3rd days he was doing the same thing with 40k armies. Now all that money is going away from GW to PP.

This is an interesting guy.
Modeling of PP figures seems to be a bit more of a problem than in 40k due to the different plastic and metal miniatures.

Building PP models is about as much fun as a trip to the dentist. You're lucky if you have all the parts right out of the box and don't have to wait 2 weeks for PP to send you a part that's necessary to complete the model. They often have tiny bits that you have to glue on with no support and no way to add any so they break off every time you transport your models (choir of menoth, sword on the piper). The plastic in the starter and battle boxes is just awful. There's mold lines everywhere, usually in really bad places and you have to forcefully cut them off with a hobby knife. You can't really pose them at all. The resin/plastic mix is brittle so stuff like the Vanquisher CCW arm and Kreoss1 staff snap off easily. The aesthetics are nothing to write home about so when you're done with all the "fun" of putting them together and painting them, they're still not all that impressive to look at.

However, the rules are so much better than GW people still switch to PP and never look back. I will probably always play both while wishing PP made better models or GW knew how to write rules. The difference in the 2 companies is PP has acknowledged that their models suck and started producing normal plastic models on sprues while GW screams "forge the narrative!", sticks their head in the sand and doubles down on everything that made the last edition of the rules suck.

**Deadnight**

Toofast wrote:

Building PP models is about as much fun as a trip to the dentist. You're lucky if you have all the parts right out of the box and don't have to wait 2 weeks for PP to send you a part that's necessary to complete the model. They often have tiny bits that you have to glue on with no support and no way to add any so they break off every time you transport your models (choir of menoth, sword on the piper). The plastic in the starter and battle boxes is just awful. There's mold lines everywhere, usually in really bad places and you have to forcefully cut them off with a hobby knife. You can't really pose them at all. The resin/plastic mix is brittle so stuff like the Vanquisher CCW arm and Kreoss1 staff snap off easily. The aesthetics are nothing to write home about so when you're done with all the "fun" of putting them together and painting them, they're still not all that impressive to look at.
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I've never had missing parts bud. Similarly, I've never really had any issues with any of the plastics I've bought.

You've been unlucky. It's not par for the course.

Regarding the aesthetics - they're subjective. I happen to like the WMH 'look'.

**zlayer77**

The most interesting thing is that many of us "dont like the look of the miniatures in Wormahords", but we still left GW in the dust for the rules.. I would be so bold to say that both PP, Corvus belli and Mantic and many other companies that have come along in the past decade, dont put as much focus on the miniatures as GW does.. But still they are growing and GW is tanking (You just have to read the the financial reports, from the last years to see that, Sales are down, and they still make a profit by cutting costs, staff and closing stores)..

That means "RULES" are the most important thing, Not price or what they look like.. There is a thread in the GW general section on these boards about why people quit GW etc.. And the leading argument is "BAD RULES" and "TREATING Us as long time Customers badly", Pricing comes on 3rd place...

I truly belive that even if GW made their hobby cheaper, people would still leave the game and not come back...

The only thing that can FIX GW in the long run are the "RULES"... But for some unknown reason this aspect of the game always gets put on the back burner at GW HQ.. At one point when they had the "exclusive produkt", they kinda had a monopoly on the Fantasy/sci fi genre of table top gaming for over 2 decades.. This strategi was a good choise, make broken rules, force people to buy more armies etc.. not Uppdating rules/codexes in a timely manner was a good market strategi...

But in 2014, after the computer gaming industry has really broken into the mainstream, and talk of Blance and uppdates is something everyone, including avrage joe, knows about.. THAT gak DOSENT FLY ANYMORE.. If GW did any market Reserch they would come to understand this, but sadly they dont... At this rate I would give them another decade and then they are gone...

Most of the Oldschool companies that were around back in the day have crumbled and closed.. TSR and Whitewolf and many more that were big in the 90s.. are all gone now.. The industry has changed.. And if GW dosent change they will die like the Dinosaur they are. IT is just Evolution "survivial of the fittest"

**Torga_DW**

I'm not a big fan of wm/h, to be honest. I keep trying to get into the game but it turns me off. I see it as another version of 40k (with all the special rules), just a version that is actually done well. I think thats the appeal for some people though (just my opinion here) - its what 40k might look like if it were done well.

**wuestenfux**

Deadnight wrote:
Toofast wrote:

Building PP models is about as much fun as a trip to the dentist. You're lucky if you have all the parts right out of the box and don't have to wait 2 weeks for PP to send you a part that's necessary to complete the model. They often have tiny bits that you have to glue on with no support and no way to add any so they break off every time you transport your models (choir of menoth, sword on the piper). The plastic in the starter and battle boxes is just awful. There's mold lines everywhere, usually in really bad places and you have to forcefully cut them off with a hobby knife. You can't really pose them at all. The resin/plastic mix is brittle so stuff like the Vanquisher CCW arm and Kreoss1 staff snap off easily. The aesthetics are nothing to write home about so when you're done with all the "fun" of putting them together and painting them, they're still not all that impressive to look at.
.

I've never had missing parts bud. Similarly, I've never really had any issues with any of the plastics I've bought.

You've been unlucky. It's not par for the course.

Regarding the aesthetics - they're subjective. I happen to like the WMH 'look'.

Here I can underline what has been said by Toofast.
Recently I was missing part of Mother Directrix and the GW plastic is superior to that of PP.
It appears that there will be a long way to go for PP in order to keep up with GW when it comes to models and modeling.