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I love historical gaming, but unfortunately its not popular among the regulars here. I managed to get a Flames of War following here and now a moderate group of us play early war. But I want more!

So im tossing up between these two systems as my Flames of war Japs are nearly finished.

Of the two game systems, which is the most flexible in terms of who can fight who and so on? For example the big selling point of flames of war was I could fight germans despite being Japanese and it not effect the game. How easy is this to do with the game systems mentioned above? (for example I want to do Zulu War British, but I know nobody will want to play as Zulu. Can my British face off some Austrians in black powder without issue?)

How big roughly are the forces in these two games? Ranging from smaller to larger?

Which is the better system for casuals? (I.E not taking it too seriously and not playing it frequently)

Once I narrow down which system i'll then ask more questions.

Thanks

Hello,

Personally I'd say Bolt action would be the better of the two for what your after, Black powder tends to need quite a lot of models for a game and is a little less flexible with what forces can play against eachother.
I play Germans for Bolt action and regularly play againts other German players ( Just pretend its some sort of training exercise) and i also play against a player that uses Japanese with no trouble. I'd also say its cheaper than Black powder to get started you can buy the 1000 point starter boxes for around £70 and thats pretty much all you'll need apart from the order dice (you could however just use two sets of different colour normal dice)

Hope that helps and if you have any other questions I'm more than happy to try and awnser them for you.

Lewis

Alright. Until I find more historical players I'll try my luck getting the flames of war guys into some bolt action.

How do the Japanese play?

What purchases do you recommend?

Anything I should know before buying into this?

The Japanese are pretty good at close combat but not so good at shooting from my experince, they also get access to very cheap suicide Anti tank squads.
I would recomend looking at the starter sets here http://store.warlordgames.com/collections/bolt-action-starter-sets the ones that go for £80 those all have enough for 1000 points which is the upper limit that most people play at. You'll also need to pick up a rule book and eventually the Armies of whichever nation you choose. I'd also recomend taking a look at this site http://boltaction.easyarmy.com/ It's a very good list builder that shows all of the different Theater selectors aswell as the generic ones for all of the diffrent nations and it puts any special rules for individual squads in their entry.

Lewis

Sounds perfect. What army do you recommend for them to fight from a game play perspective?

For the Japanese I'd recomend going quite infantry heavy with as many sub machine guns as you can get in a squad as it give them an extra attack in close combat which is where the Japanese are best. and maybe add a mortar or artillery peice for a bit of ranged support.

One thing to consider, Bolt Action covers a much wider time period. Bolt Action only covers WWII. Therefore, it might be able to take on a wider range of opponents models. For example, Zulu War british could take on Civil War Confederates, 7-Years war Prussians, etc. all under the same rules.

However, if you are looking for pick-up games and don't have a pre-planned gaming group of opponents than Bolt Action is a good bet. It is gaining in popularity. I personally find it a bit too "gamey" and prefer a ruleset like Battlegroup Kursk (and its offshoots), Chain of Command, Force-on-Force set in WWII, or a number of others.

However, if you are moving from Flames of War into Bolt Action then you might not "feel" that "gamey" thing as much or even prefer it.

YMMV

Another thing to consider is 15mm bolt action.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/577135.page
Strombones got me and some
Friends into it. Much cheaper as usually a blister or two covers your army. All you really need to do is base them separately.

Yea black Powder has (by the looks of it) over 100 Years of warfare to cover. So that changes a lot if the forces of different eras can face each other and still have a fair fight. I belong to a club, so everything is pre planned and organized well in advance. I just want something with freedom of armies as the top priority. Its the big selling point for those I play with.

The reason I went with Flames of war was because it was a 40k style (ish) game that was balanced and easy to get into. An introduction into historical gaming. So I want to take it a step further now, just gotta convince them. So as much as Id love a historic game thats hugely in depth and so on, I gotta stick to gamey.



The 15mm may work, but I love the model range for 28mm truescale right now so I would love to go into that area. But if they wont buy into either of these then I may fall back to that as they already have the minis.


As for the SMGs Im a huge fan of the Japanese army, who did not have SMGs issued often at all so rifles will have to do. The others players im with may not play very historically but I like to try keep my force as accurate as possible.


Has anyone played Black Powder?

Why not go for something with a more historical feel and gameplay?

BA is in a similar 40k style vein as FoW, why not go for something with period feel like Chain of Command?

If you have WW2 'lite' with FoW why not go for something that reflects the historical period and rewards proper use of period tactics for your skirmish game?


Im not even gonna plug Battlegroup...

I would love to, but I gotta convince others in my club who are simply far more into Fantasy and Sci Fi. So the only edge I have is getting a balanced fun rule set that can be played at reasonable cost. Otherwise I would be playing the more indepth games I hear about. As with all wargames, I am limited by those who play around me.

From your response, I see no comment that rules out Chain of Command.

Size of the armies involved is 28mm and the same as BA.

It has a 'force selection' process that allows a balanced game.

Its cheaper to buy with rules as one book and free army lists.

As a bonus it has period feel where weapons tend to act like their historical counterpart and rewards proper tactics, such as fire and manouvere.

Hmmm ok chain of command. Ill give that a look through too. Whats the gist of that one? (besides what you just said)

I think one of its more interesting mechanics in Chain of Command is the Scout move at the beginning. Essentially, you and your opponent move scouts around the board until they get to a point where they become locked in. I.e. they are too close to the opposing units or too close to the edge etc.

These scout points become jumping off points where you can deploy the rest of your force. That means the "pre-battle" stage can be pretty important to the game as well.

If you still want to follow Bolt Action and want to know about japan and their pros and cons drop me a PM and ill happily run through some suggestions as I play Japan quite often and love everything about their style.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
from my personal experience:
(I dont have the army book in front of me but from memory)

Tanks to me are a con, in HIgh point games your enemy will more likely field some heavy tanks, which sadly are far superior to the Japanese tanks.
A pro to them are that they're small. Nice for hiding behind buildings! probably the only good thing I have discovered about their tanks.

I rarely even field them. Instead I field 3 cheap suicide anti tank guys. they vary from 14/28 points. you're allowed one to start but can have an additional 2 providing you have 2 additional support units. 1 for each additional unit (not including the 2 you need to start the list...hope that makes sense). They should be more then a match for your average fielded tank.

The upside to this is you get 1/3 additional dice for a low cost. Which can be very handy! They get Advance deployment so you can add them to the table before you start deploying! Nice bit of stress for your opponent to worry about and easily forgotten as their a single model in a table filled with distractions.

Their troops are pretty decent, along with the special rule "Bonzai" allowing you to get into CC without making a LD test regardless of the amount of Pins they have on them.

Another con which what I have experienced so far which the units I have fielded are their selection of weapons.
Your basic unit will consist of rifles. you can only equipt your NCO with a SMG, and 1 guy can be given a LMG + 1 man becomes the loader.

If you want any more feel free to PM!
Mike

Cheers, i'll PM you now!

I have my book with me now so fire away dude

Judging by your earlier post, the suicide guys are somewhat invaluable. How effective are they? Can they go solo or does the whole ynit have to go with them?

The suicide anti tank guys are individual models. Makes them harder to hit!

I love them, They don't always win you the game, and on one occasion failed miserably for me. But I wouldn't run a list without them! I buy them with the highest experience level. Mainly because they do attract attention so the higher LD will help making those pin tests!

They do not take up your anti tank category slot so you can still field artillery.

They have a High penetration value and can destroy most medium armoured tanks out there quite easily! As long as they get there in one piece. (have to make contact with the vehicle, not a blast radius)

Not a model you want in the middle of a field or a road as they will be a target. but they can be used as a distraction piece.

If you run 3 of the guys then for a minimum of 40ish points you get 3 extra dice in the bag. Very handy! though when they explode the dice are removed as standard casualties.

As i mentioned earlier, they can be given the forward deployment rule (optional) so if you fancy throwing 1/3 down before the game starts, knock yourself out! only bad this is that your opponent will see where they are placed so he/she can avoid going near them.
I place them in buildings or behind walls near roads. Tank users will push for the extra 8inches by using roads so its a nice tactic.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The majority of info I have given you is from units I have used on the table. After having a good read through the Japanese book this evening I have discovered some of the info I gave you isn't quite true in regards to the units fire power.

Where I said earlier about only the NCO being allowed a SMG is wrong.
The type of units of infantry I have fielded (IJA Infantry) in my lists are only allowed one SMG (carried by the NCO) but there are other Theatre units of japanese soliders who are allowed to carry SMGs (up to 3, including NCO)

SNLF +1 extra SMG in the unit
Paratroopers +2 extra SMGs in the unit

So with a unit of 5 men, 3 of which can be given SMGs as long as you pay the cost and state the name of the unit your using.
Very confusing I know.

Another nice treat the IJA can have are a specialist unit which can carry 3 light mortars. Adding a little flavour!