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Hi, i was wondering what people thought of the Thudd Gun compared to the wyvern assuming both are maxed squad sizes.

I am considering using 3 thudd guns in my 1850 list as a fire base on a skyshield alongside two abg vanquishers and some guardsmen blobs

The Heavy Quad Launchers are vastly superior to Wyverns, since you can give them orders, attach allied Space Marine characters to them to protect them from being demolished in assault, and S5 AP5 is better than S4 AP6 since the battery can be easily given orders for Tank Hunter, Monster Hunter, or Ignores Cover.

To be fair, Wyverns have shred. S4 shred is usually better than S5.

S5 is actually better than S4 Shred against T5 and T6, and only slightly worse against S4. The S4 is also useless against AV11.

Wyverns don't NEED orders though, unlike, thudd guns. Also, Wyverns never fail moral tests and they can move a little (reducing the chances that they get charged).

This is really a toss up in my opinion. Thudd guns look cooler and are almost definitely better if you're using very few tanks; Wyverns are probably better in a heavy-mech list. Thudd guns are a bit cheaper; Wyverns don't use up any of your orders, leaving them to be passed out to your infantry.

I don't think anybody can say that one is 100% better than the other, though.

Wyverns are also crippled by mid strength counterbattery fire. A single Thunderfire cannon can knock out a squadron of Wyverns. It will be hard pressed to even wound the crew of a Heavy Quad Launcher.

Similarly, a Quad Launcher will shred a Wyvern, while the Wyvern only has a 30% chance of wounded one of the swarm of gunners, who then gets an armor save.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
The Heavy Quad Launchers are vastly superior to Wyverns, since you can give them orders, attach allied Space Marine characters to them to protect them from being demolished in assault, and S5 AP5 is better than S4 AP6 since the battery can be easily given orders for Tank Hunter, Monster Hunter, or Ignores Cover.

The Wyvern has Shred (making it superior against the vast majority of Infantry and effectively gaining Monster), and gets Twin Linked and Ignores Cover as basic abilities. It doesn't need orders or psychic support (meaning such resources can be invested elsewhere), and can move if it needs to/is threatened.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
S5 is actually better than S4 Shred against T5 and T6, and only slightly worse against S4.

S5 will average 0.5 wounds against T5. S4 Shred will average 0.55 wounds against T5. S5 will on average produce 0.33 wounds against T6 while S4 Shred will on average inflict 0.31 wounds against T6. S5 will inflict 0.66 wounds on average against T4, S4 Shred will produce 0.75 on average.

So S4 Shred is actually slightly better against T5, while only *very* slightly worse against T6, and the increase in performance of the Wyvern over the Thudd Gun against T4 is much more drastic than either gap in T5/6 performance.

Also, T5 and T6 targets aren't *super* common (especially as good targets for multi-shot blast weapons, Dreadknights will laugh off both weapons) and typically aren't the targets that Thudd Guns and Wyverns want to go for in the first place anyway, the vast majority of the time you'll want both Thudd Guns and Wyverns engaging T3/4 targets.

The S4 is also useless against AV11.

And S5 fire isn't terribly effective even though it's possible, that's desperation fire either way.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Wyverns are also crippled by mid strength counterbattery fire. A single Thunderfire cannon can knock out a squadron of Wyverns. It will be hard pressed to even wound the crew of a Heavy Quad Launcher.

Right, but most armies don't have counterbattery fire that can engage a Wyvern battery, especially at great range, and a Wyvern will be more effective at engaging a TFC than a Thudd Gun will be (both are wounding 6's but the Wyvern gets rerolls).

I think the Wyvern wins in pure damage output against most things, even though I have not done the mathhammer on it.

Some tactical benefits of the Thudd is that it is smaller and thus easier to hide, and you don't risk an unlucky Explode result if your opponent is packing lots of anti-tank.

Yeah, the Thudd guns are much more resilient (if given Ld support or run in a DKoK army) and are a bit cheaper, but the Wyverns are definitely killier against the majority of targets. Neither are bad units, but they're a bit different in functionality.

T6 targets are everywhere. Nurgle Spawntide is the best thing CSM has going for it. Plaguedrones will see a resurgence as people MSU up. T6 also covers Nurgle bikes, and most monstrous creatures. It's a fairly popular number.

There is a benefit to not needing Orders, but with an AP6 and a Strength too low to penetrate a vehicle, the Ignores Cover is essentially window dressing anyway.

I also see no reason to take something for its ability to kill T3 and T4 targets. You know what else is good at killing T3 and T4 targets? 50 guys with lasguns.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
T6 targets are everywhere. Nurgle Spawntide is the best thing CSM has going for it. Plaguedrones will see a resurgence as people MSU up. T6 also covers Nurgle bikes, and most monstrous creatures. It's a fairly popular number.

I'm not saying T6 doesn't exist, but they're limited to specific armies and specific builds. T6 Nurgle Bikers are expensive and are only taken in a limited number of CSM armies for instance. The Wyvern also is only very minorly less capable against these targets. Also if we're talking Nurgle Daemons, the Wyvern ignores their cover save bonuses, which can be quite huge indeed, while the Thudd Gun's AP5 is meaningless.

There is a benefit to not needing Orders, but with an AP6 and a Strength too low to penetrate a vehicle, the Ignores Cover is essentially window dressing anyway.

With the number of wounds you're generating, the armor saves are usually academic (and literally only matters for 5+sv units, for 6+/4+/3+/2+sv units it doesn't matter). Ignores Cover makes a mockery of Ruins, Gone to Ground, Nightfight, and special rules like Shrouded. It's also not like the Thudd Gun's S5 is spectacular at dealing with vehicles, it's not, if it's shooting at vehicles you either have no better targets or are exceedingly desperate.

I also see no reason to take something for its ability to kill T3 and T4 targets. You know what else is good at killing T3 and T4 targets? 50 guys with lasguns.

And guess what's limited to a 24" range (and ideally wants to be within 12") instead of 48", needs LoS, and costs as much as 4 wyverns (assuming *no* upgrades or support options)?