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Hi all,
Next Thursday I've a game against a guy who, I must admit, is a better player than me. I've a few game against his Orks, Blood Angels and IG.. and he always won

Although they were usually close games, with the exception of my last game against his Orks which was a crushing defeat.
He usually runs a list with Ghazghkull, lots of Meganobz in their Front AV14 assault tank and lots of Lootas. This is a list I always found troublesome with my TAC list, because I never had enough dakka to crack his tanks and kill enough Meganobz from the distance.

However, since he usually tailors his lists against mine (he has 3 armies, I have just CSM with some daemons), I want to do the same thing.
We already agreed that Abaddon will try to get his revenge against Ghazghkull, so I will have to take Abaddon. And he's very likely to take its usual Orks list.

So... do you have any suggestions regarding which CSM/Daemons unit will be most effective against his list?

I already decided to take:
Abaddon
4 Termies with MoT, Powerfist and Land Raider
1 Herald of Slaanesh with ML1 and Exalted Locus of Beguilement
20 Daemonettes

What I'm considering:
- Nurgle Spawns: I always take 10 of them, however I found they have lots of troubles against meganobz. I hit on 4s, wound on 3s and he saves on 2s. He hits on 3s, wounds on 2s and I get no saves whatsover. They always get pwned
- Oblits: They are good, but with the wrong deployment method I'd get only 1 or 2 rounds of shooting. Investing too many points on them could not be that worthy
- Be'Lakor: I'm almost sure to get this guy. Since it's extremely likely that Abaddon will have to duel against Ghazghkull, having an Invisible Abaddon+Termies it's a guarantee to win that duel. And he's also a wonderful Meganobz killer... I'm just afraid that if he doesn't kill enough of them due to bad dice rolling... well, he'd fall pretty fast on CC, being wounded on 2s and saving on 4s only.

The idea is to put Abaddon and the termies in the Land Raider, and place it where it would slow his advance as much as I can. He doesn't have the weaponry to blow up a LR from range, the only way he can do that is by charging it. But an invisible LR is very likely to absorb sooo much power klaw attacks that if he really tries to charge it, he would expose all his meganobz to my charge.
The daemonettes with the Herald are almost guaranteed to blow one full squad of meganobz on the charge. 65 rending attacks that re-roll to hit... on average it's 11-12 unsaved wounds

But... apart from that, I have no idea on how to tackle his lists. Go heavy with the oblits, pounding his Battlewagons from the distance and forcing him to charge my LR?
Give up on the idea of killing him from the distance and relying on charging him and winning CC? If so, which units should I use? The only feasible way to use Nurgle Spawns is to have a Biomancy Sorcerer attached to them... but what if I don't pick either endurance or enfeeble?

Any ideas?

Thanks

If he is playing a super assaulty army then you might not need the land raider, Abaddon in a squad of 30 cultists is pretty damn cheap compared to the landraider solution (although if you were against a shooting heavy army then it wouldnt work since they only move 6" + run each turn. You can also have 3 flamers at the back to discourage 30 boy charges.

You should also consider a flying daemon prince of nurgle for summoning, you can give him burning brand too (together with a heldrake that should toast all the lootas pretty quick), when he Jinks he gets a 2+ cover save and it's 6s to hit. He has a S4 AP3 weapon and can score you all the tactical objectives pretty easily. Looks like you already have 20 daemonettes in your collection so you could take this guy instead of the regular daemon detatchment.

Alternatively if you are worried about dakkajets, a flying slaanesh lash prince can summon daemons, and the turn the jet is scheduled to arrive you can fly to the edge of the board, summon some daemons and then use your run move to leave the board and enter ongoing reserves (ready to ambush the dakkajet).

A heldrake can't hurt either.

Make sure you play a Maelstrom of War mission and dont just play till one of you is dead because that is way less tactical and leads towards you just making a massive deathstar and playing for 10 turns.

In a fight between abbadon and ghazzy, if ghazzy has his WAAAGH! on, ghazzy's going to win. he has a 2++ save during it, Abbadon won't stand a chance.

I'd suggest chaos vindicators and obliterators. obliterators take out ghazzy's ride with lascannons, and then the bunched-up meganobs take one or two S10 AP2 pieplates to the face. just remember to keep them at maximum range, move backwards if necessary.

I'd try to get a few fast CC units into the army to seek out the lootas and stop them shooting. spawn, maulerfiends, bikers, nurgle daemon princes. Nurgly flying prince is a good option, IMHO. I'd just give him the black mace and call it a day there. no point wasting points on the mastery levels, because if the lootas get lucky he'll die really fast anyway. don't throw the spawn at meganobs, you'll only feed them.

first turn fly at the lootas, keep your distance from ghazzy and use the obliterators & vindicators to kill them off. jink for a 2+ and expect to lose maybe one wound if you're lucky, no wounds if you're not. if you get grounded, it's brilliant, jump forward and charge them. if you survive it all, jump somewhere they can see you and let them shoot you. jink again and tank it on 2+'s. the charge should ruin them.

Maulerfiends will also help vs the meganobs. use your maneuvrability to get the charge, avoid contact with ghazzy. kill off a few meganobs and expect the maulerfiend to die. if it kills 3, it's made its points back.

summary: Maulerfiends, Vindicators and Obliterators. shoot the fighty stuff, fight the shooty stuff.

 some bloke wrote:

first turn fly at the lootas, keep your distance from ghazzy and use the obliterators & vindicators to kill them off. jink for a 2+ and expect to lose maybe one wound if you're lucky, no wounds if you're not. if you get grounded, it's brilliant, jump forward and charge them. if you survive it all, jump somewhere they can see you and let them shoot you. jink again and tank it on 2+'s. the
charge should ruin them.

This is good advice for 6th but in 7th you cant land (from flying) and then charge in the same turn. Also the ability to summon 600 points worth of daemons throughout the game is well worth the 350 point cost on a fully tooled up burning brand nurgle prince. The nurgle prince is 6+ to hit and a 2+ cover save (even in the open since he can jink). Also you only have to take a single grounding test after all the army has shot.

Thank you for your ideas guys!
However I forgot to mention that he'll likely run 3x5 lootas inside their lowest point transport (can't remember the name now).
Maybe the Heldrake would be a better idea than spawns...

wtnind wrote:If he is playing a super assaulty army then you might not need the land raider, Abaddon in a squad of 30 cultists is pretty damn cheap compared to the landraider solution (although if you were against a shooting heavy army then it wouldnt work since they only move 6" + run each turn. You can also have 3 flamers at the back to discourage 30 boy charges.

This way I loose maneuverability, while he can move 13" and then charge with his Meganobz. This means that he will stay inside the wagons until he gets in charge range, killing my cultists while I can do nothing to stop him. 5 meganobz on the charge are 20 attacks, in a couple of turns my mob of cultists is gone.

If I manage to charge with termies, instead, we both get 3 attacks, we both hit on 4s and wound on 2s. But I get a 4++ save, he gets ID Only Ghazghkull and a Warboss would surive a Power Fist in the face, and I have Abaddon for them.

Make sure you play a Maelstrom of War mission and dont just play till one of you is dead because that is way less tactical and leads towards you just making a massive deathstar and playing for 10 turns.

We won't play Maelstrom of War

some bloke wrote:In a fight between abbadon and ghazzy, if ghazzy has his WAAAGH! on, ghazzy's going to win. he has a 2++ save during it, Abbadon won't stand a chance.

That's why I'm planning to bring Be'Lakor with me. Invisibility on the turn of his WAAAGH! and it's quite likely that we will both go through the first round of the challenge unharmed.
Even without Invisibility I do think that Abaddon has he chances too, the 2++ is just a two player turns thing, and on average he won't kill abaddon in 2 turns. On the following turns then it all depends on dice rolling, Abaddon strikes first, has higher WS with much more attacks and with a better invuln save. You just have to do not roll a 1 on his daemon weapon extra attacks roll.

I'd suggest chaos vindicators and obliterators. obliterators take out ghazzy's ride with lascannons, and then the bunched-up meganobs take one or two S10 AP2 pieplates to the face. just remember to keep them at maximum range, move backwards if necessary.

That would be a great idea, but I don't have one.
I'd have to proxy it with a Rhino.... I don't know, I'll think about it...

The Maulerfiend would be great, but I'm afraid he would die too easily against lootas.. don't you think?

wtnind wrote:

 some bloke wrote:

first turn fly at the lootas, keep your distance from ghazzy and use the obliterators & vindicators to kill them off. jink for a 2+ and expect to lose maybe one wound if you're lucky, no wounds if you're not. if you get grounded, it's brilliant, jump forward and charge them. if you survive it all, jump somewhere they can see you and let them shoot you. jink again and tank it on 2+'s. the
charge should ruin them.

This is good advice for 6th but in 7th you cant land (from flying) and then charge in the same turn. Also the ability to summon 600 points worth of daemons throughout the game is well worth the 350 point cost on a fully tooled up burning brand nurgle prince. The nurgle prince is 6+ to hit and a 2+ cover save (even in the open since he can jink). Also you only have to take a single grounding test after all the army has shot.

personally I think dropping daemons on the table is just a money grabbing gimmick and don't intend to give it much thought. if you're wanting invisibility to go off, you want to put all the dice you can into making it undeniable.

As for the burning brand, it's a 30 point flamer against the orks. AP3 doesn't matter, it'll get through 6+ saves and not get through 2+ saves, just like a regular flamer. and if the flying prince jinks, it'll not be able to use it as it has to fire snap shots.

expecting the only flying thing in the game to not get shot by an army of lootas is ludicrous. if you get shot, you'll jink. every time you jink, you waste that 30 points. if you miraculously get to a position to charge the turn after landing without having jinked previously, the brand will kill most of the lootas and the charge will be pointless.

and don't forget that if 2 squads of lootas get lucky and roll 3 shots at him when he lands, chances are he'll die to it. he's essentially 4 terminators to them (they'll still wound on 2's and he'll have 2+ saves). a bit of luck and the daemon goes bye-bye. a sudden change of tack from ghazzy and co. and the daemon goes bye-bye. spending 75 points to make him level 3 and 30 points for the brand he'll never use and 30 for the black mace makes his such a points sink it's ridiculous. against an army of high volume high strength cheap firepower, I'd reccommend saving the 100 points or so and just have a barebones nurgle prince with wings. in fact the black mace isn't even needed against lootas. if he's the lynchpin of the armies success because he's needed to pump out daemons and flame stuff and draw firepower and assault lootas, expect him to die as soon as he comes into line of sight, and certainly when he lands. none of those points make him harder to kill. and as soon as he's gone, expect the chaos player to look down at what he has left and go "oh, bugger."

As to Maulerfiends, lootas are not mobile weapons, they have to stay still to fire to full effect. maulerfiends can easily dart from cover to cover, staying out of LoS. he'll survive a lot of loota fire if the lootas can't see him.

It's true that abbadon will probably survive ghazzy. the problem is his entourage - if there's a lot (8-9) or meganobs, then they'll kill off 4 terminators with ease. contemptuous ease. 4 attacks each, averaging 2 wounds each, so each meganob will kill a terminator. invisibility might save you, but let's face it, 36 attacks still yields 5 wounds if it hits on 6's, and that's 2-3 dead terminators. if invis fails, then the roll-over wounds will probably kill abby.

Next time you're in a GW store, ask them if they have any of the old reels from the till. they're just the right size for making a vindicator barrel. just cut a couple centimeters off and use it with blu-tack to proxy the vindicator. good, cheap and stops the opponent forgetting about it!

It takes over 36 shots from lootas to cause a single wound on a flying nurgle prince. The summoning is perfect for grabbing tactical objectives (summon daemonettes, run onto objective). It's definetly a cash grab and if you dont play with tactical objectives theres less point but if you are playing maelstrom of war then he is a very good unit (and you never land with him, ever).

Even though we are chaos, we still field space marines. Shoot them to pieces and use all the warp power you can get. A lot of people overlook them, but possessed can really bring the pain in assault if they ever make it to the enemy. I'd not run cultists against orks, though. It's just a waste of points. They'll cut them to ribbons quick. Against their tanks, we have TONS of options. Between being able to have quite a large number of lascannons on the table to the now awesome maulerfiend, you should be able to take out pretty much any armor you target. The problem against orks is needing to shift target types, so obliterators are probably a good choice here. Trukks are easy to wipe out, as well.

Would somebody explain to me how a flying nurgle prince gets a 2+ save? Jink gives a 5+ and then shrouded is +2 so I am seeing a 3+ cover save...not a 2+?

Jink gives 4+


Automatically Appended Next Post:
3x5 lootaz isn't too bad, a few casualties and they're pretty ineffective. A drake would roast them nicely but bikes or raptors with a flamer could also do well as well as charge in to mop up.

You mentioned lootaz in a transport, last I checked they could not purchase trukks so need to deploy on the table and embark onto someone else's or use a battle wagon.

Something fast or mobile that can move to get side shots on the wagon can more easily stop it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A list of his likely units to take (along with what they generally do) along with what you have in your collection would be useful also.

I ran a 3 sorcerer list with laspreds with great success against terminators...let's see

Abaddon
2 Sorcerors (recommend in term armor w/ spell familiars)
1 DP w/ wings and armor...give him the burning brand...better than a helldrake now...plus some casting levels

Cultists
Cultists
Cultists
Cultists
Maybe a plasma squad of chosen in a rhino

Biker squad
Biker squad

3x laspreds

That's a pretty good tailoring against orcs/meganobz...

Remember if you play by the new scenarios, your job is to out scenario your opponent...summon the hell out of daemons every turn, I prefer daemonettes...
With the reroll on summoning, I've been able to economically complete the summon on 4 dice without getting perils often, opponents cringe when they see 4-5-6

Abaddon has repeatedly stolen the lunch money of Ghaz. Even on the Charge, Ghaz will easily get recked.

Ghaz' 7 attacks on the charge, Initiative 1 hitting on 4s wounding on 2s.

Abaddon not on the charge, 4 attacks (+1 for counter charge from MoK) + D6 hitting on 3s wounding on 4s. Abaddon FORCES Ghaz to use his Waaagh! in any fight he gets into with the Despoiler simply because he WILL die otherwise. Abaddon however can survive the first round of combat quite easily due to his 4++.

I've never had a problem with Ghaz if I were running Abaddon. Wanna be prick? Throw him in a group of Terminators with the Mark and Icon of Slaanesh / Excess for FNP. Abaddon now has bodyguards and FNP...

The only time I have ever lost a combat against Ghaz was when my Daemon Weapon rolled a 1 and Abaddon poked his own eye out. Ghaz didn't even kill him, he did it himself.

Remember, Incompetence wears terminator armor

ghaz's attacks will cause instant death to abbadon. whilst he is immune to it, his feel-no-pain isnt, so he wouldn't get it.

and remember, a savvy player would add another character to the unit, accept the challenge with him, direct abby's attacks at them instead and then still smush the squad with ghazzy.

if a bikerboss joins the unit just before the charge and faces down abbadon, the boss gets 5++ , abby gets a 4++. if abby does carve through the bikerboss, then the overflow still doesn't hit ghazzy.

I don't see 4 termies and abby killing 9 meganobs and ghazzy.

No, Gaz's attacks won't ID Abby, she's got EW.

Are 4 termies+abbadon the same points value as Ghazzy and 9 meganobs...My guess would be no since they are practically the equivalent type of units...but then again I am no ork expert.

karandras15 wrote:


Remember if you play by the new scenarios, your job is to out scenario your opponent...summon the hell out of daemons every turn, I prefer daemonettes...
With the reroll on summoning, I've been able to economically complete the summon on 4 dice without getting perils often, opponents cringe when they see 4-5-6

remember daemon princes only perils on double 6 since they have the daemon usr. Although they do have to take grounding test if they take a wound from it.

IF you run Abaddon AND either Kharn or an Axe of Blind Fury Lord, you will chop up all the MegaNobz before they strike. Ally Fateweaver so you can reroll the 1s you will perhaps get for Daemon Weapon rolls (kinda why I like Kharn sometimes).

Short of assault, Obliterators alternating fire of plasma cannons and lascannons should make short work of them. Meanwhile a Defiler or Forgefiend can deal with the Lootaz.

Real Chaos Marines don't need Daemon Princes to deal with the likes of the green-skins.

Interesting suggestions you all.
I believe I'll swap the Helldrake with a unit of Nurgle bikers with flamers, they should work good both for Lootas inside vehicles AND any possible green-tide surprise

dayve110 wrote:
A list of his likely units to take (along with what they generally do) along with what you have in your collection would be useful also.

His likely units... honestly I don't know. He usually plays BA, I saw him playing Orks twice, both times with the same list. I expect Ghazghkull, lots of meganobz and a very assaulty list. At most some Lootas.

Me.. For the vehicles I have 1 Rhino and 1 Land Raider, no other tanks. "Only" 2 Helldrakes and 1 Maulerfiend.
Regarding infantry, HQ and Daemons... assume I can field at least 2 of everything (between models I have or I can proxy)

GoliothOnline wrote: Wanna be prick? Throw him in a group of Terminators with the Mark and Icon of Slaanesh / Excess for FNP. Abaddon now has bodyguards and FNP...

This is a combination I use often. However doesn't work very well against Meganobz... Str = 2x Toughness means that you lose FNP, even with Eternal Warrior. Thus Warbosses and Ghazghkull both negates Abby's FNP, while every Meganobz negates Terminator's FNP.
I believe MoT is a better idea for this specific fight, cause it allows to sponge half of the wounds on the Termies instead 1 every 3

Why not have a unit of plasma chosen near abby, for a wonderful volley of 5 plasma guns. If he uses BA you even get preferred enemy.

Against MANZ a daemon prince with the AOBF will wreck house. 7+d6 S8 attacks on the charge? yeah... nothing left standing. If you are as absurdly lucky on the boon table as I am, go for that gift. Getting shred or eternal warrior on an AOBF daemon prince is great.

Semper wrote:
No, Gaz's attacks won't ID Abby, she's got EW.

which is why I immediately said that abbadon is immune to instant death, but if he had FnP from an icon, the FnP is not immune to instant death, so he wouldn't get it.

I played chaos yesterday, won on points but got tabled in the last turn :( he had typhus and an unmarked sorceror in a unit of 10 nurgle terminators with all twin-lightning claws and 2 reaper autocannon/chainfist termies. i managed to kill off 2 of them in the whole game. If typhus can get enfeeble on ghazzy's unit, then ghazzy will probably die to typhus as he's no longer ID'ing him. the sorceror rolled on sanctic and pulled hammer hand, lucky bugger. 12 terminators with +2 strength lightning claws hurts, a lot.

meganobs died to obliterators, i forgot they have plasmacannons. pop their wagon, then lay on the pieplates.