Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I've got a few games of 7th under my belt, and despite being a bit of a die-hard >lists-that-were-good-in-6th< fan, it's pretty obvious that most of that needs to be chucked out the window :(

The maelstrom missions and tactical objectives are by the vast majority about scoring objectives on the table, with a couple about killin' and one or two about other sundry things for a bit of flavour (including only one specifically about manifesting psychic powers).

Without going into specifics, the game is now absolutely DOMINATED by fast moving, numerous super-scoring units, with killyness and survivability being highly beneficial, but not strictly necessary (no need to shift a scoring unit off an objective if you can trump it by super-scoring). Infiltrate and scout are great for early-game objective scoring.

It almost seems like a list built for scoring objectives could ignore the enemy as long as it can keep hopping around and reacting to the cards. (Not quite true of course, but you could conceivably win a game without killing a single enemy model). The traditional secondary objectives are only really a minor deciding factor in close games when the scoring regularly hits double figures).

The fact that you tot up your score at the end of your turn and not the game turn is also key here - the opponent can do nothing in your turn to prevent you from scoring.

It seems like spamming fast, superscoring, killy units will win games. No wonder eldar are still king of the hill - maelstrom missions seem tailored for their strong points.

Troops in dedicated transports FTW.

Without going into specifics on units and lists (hopefully we can apply this thread to any army) what factors will be paramount in list building, and which strategies will you be employing to win games?

What is to be kept in mind, however, is that list building is now split into two different approaches: Standard and Maelstrom. A list that fares well in Maelstrom missions does not necessarily have to fare well in Standard missions and vice versa.

Yep, I aim to build a list that can do decently in both with only minor shifts depending on the different missions.

Also fast is all well and good, but if your opponent is slightly slower but still mobile and is more killy than you then you are going to lose.

to be fair you've got to prepare for both, as whoever wins the roll-off gets to choose. if you're ready for both, and can see that your opponent is tailored for just one, you can put the game in your favour from the off by picking the one they are worst at.

fast is good, medium speed and killy (so killy vehicles) is good, but I think foot horde isn't goin g to win maelstrom games very easily. grey knights might have a chance with their shunt moves to get into position turn 1, but multiple small fast units is the way forward, it seems.

So, this is fast attack edition? Nice, Stormboyz have always been my favorite.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I can see a case for footslogging armies that can be broken up into a lot of different groups, like trukk boys (though the trukk is admittedly a fast vehicle), tyranids, or maybe even a goodly number of split space marine groups (I can't pretend to know space marines OR tyranids very well, though, so that may not be true). It seems likely that being able to cover the whole board with Objective Secured troops would be a boon, especially if you can keep them from getting killed off very quickly. Who needs to jump from one side of the board to the other when they're already there?

Granted, if they do start dying, I suppose it's a matter of being able to last until the end, with enough strong rounds to get your points before the game comes to a point where you're just trying to find cover and not lose by default by getting wiped off the table. Many of the same dakka-centric rules still apply, after all.

No, this is the edition of Eldar.

Unfortunately no other army matches them in sheer maneuverability and Objective Secured. In friendlies it isn't as bad, but for any kind of competitive play Maelstrom is pretty much out.

Though, if you are truly making the type of mission random, people need to build for both.

 Zagman wrote:
No, this is the edition of Eldar.

Unfortunately no other army matches them in sheer maneuverability and Objective Secured. In friendlies it isn't as bad, but for any kind of competitive play Maelstrom is pretty much out.

Though, if you are truly making the type of mission random, people need to build for both.

>> Nightscythes

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
No, this is the edition of Eldar.

Unfortunately no other army matches them in sheer maneuverability and Objective Secured. In friendlies it isn't as bad, but for any kind of competitive play Maelstrom is pretty much out.

Though, if you are truly making the type of mission random, people need to build for both.

>> Nightscythes

Are amazing, but the Nightscythes themselves can't hold objectives, and they don't come in to at least Turn 2. Once dropped off they lose a lot of their mobility.

Don't get me wrong, Necron are still extremely mobile, but they don't come close to Wave Serpents or EJBs.

Choosing your army is the second step in the 'seven steps of preparing for battle' as listed in the 'preparing for battle' chapter of the BRB. It is preceded only by the 'the mission' step.

Should I take this to mean that GW intend for us to choose our army after rolling the mission? If so, you could easily have a maelstrom list and an eternal variant prepared for each eventuality, or even multiple lists optimising your army for each possible primary objective.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm going to open a new YMDC topic on this - let's stick to the strategy here

How do the wave serpents kill all the av 13 vehicles that necrons can bring?

On MSU and EJB:

Is a 51 point unit of Windrider Jetbikes the cheapest most efficient way to score points now in 7th edition? This is assuming the unit is wiped out after scoring, so more or less, a one shot deal.

 CKO wrote:
How do the wave serpents kill all the av 13 vehicles that necrons can bring?

AV13 lists are actually a very good counter to Wave Serpent spam. Annihilation Barges and CCBs will continue to give them fits. The Wave Serpents aren't a good counter, but Wraithknights are for both. S10 until you one one, lots of S6/7 until it's gone. Vs a CCB you either take it on the Barge risking Explodes or on the Rider risking ID for s10 vs T5.

Yeah I Played a game where someone got the D3 Victory points and 2 objective markers as cards for the Maelstrom missions. That suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked. It was Eldar, and I was playing Crons. Lost so badly. Ended the game at like turn 4. The fact they get objective secured is just to brutal to deal with and that they move like 36 inches.

It's almost unstoppable because they can just keep getting objectives over and over and super quickly.

We ended up in my group going down to just drawing 2 cards.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
On MSU and EJB:

Is a 51 point unit of Windrider Jetbikes the cheapest most efficient way to score points now in 7th edition? This is assuming the unit is wiped out after scoring, so more or less, a one shot deal.

23 points bare farsight enclave deep striking crisis suit seems quite good value too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Isn't the Jetbike rule: kill them as soon as they are on the table?

Kholzerino wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:
On MSU and EJB:

Is a 51 point unit of Windrider Jetbikes the cheapest most efficient way to score points now in 7th edition? This is assuming the unit is wiped out after scoring, so more or less, a one shot deal.

23 points bare farsight enclave deep striking crisis suit seems quite good value too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Isn't the Jetbike rule: kill them as soon as they are on the table?

Only problem with naked suits is running out of FOC, at least in a tournament setting.

If they are going after objectives on your side of the field they risk being assaulted.

Necrons can bring the douche canoe which can single handedly wipe out a crap ton of wave serpents.

There are lots of counters for wave serpents, just have to adapt your armies as we have had to every edition.

 pocketcanoe wrote:
It seems like spamming fast, superscoring, killy units will win games.

I think this has almost always been true.

2/3 of the Tactical Objective missions I've played, I wound up having to abandon the cards and just focus on tabling my opponent. I think that fast, superscoring units (like Eldar Jetbikes) to zip around and pick up objectives are nice, but they are hardly the be-all end-all of list building.

Still, the zippy-claimer units are definitely a new thing we will have to contend with, and while they aren't required to win, I think what will absolutely be required to win is a strategy for dealing with them if they show up in your opponent's army.

To my mind it's pretty obvious this editions is taking a swipe at Death Stars and blobs.. In that order...
To me that can only be a good thing, I was sick of seeing death stars anyway..

As for fast ruling the meta.. Yeah a bit worried about any one type ruling any given meta, hopefully good TO's will curb this

Eldar still have to deal with either being durable or being shooty. Assymetrical missions are still going to be a thing and I think it will be interesting to see how WS spam does.

 Zagman wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:


>> Nightscythes

Are amazing, but the Nightscythes themselves can't hold objectives, and they don't come in to at least Turn 2. Once dropped off they lose a lot of their mobility.

Don't get me wrong, Necron are still extremely mobile, but they don't come close to Wave Serpents or EJBs.

Ok, so I'm still muddling through some of the finer points of 7th so let me ask: why can't a Nightscythe hold an objective, at least if it was purchased as a dedicated transport for a troop unit in a CAD? Just curious...

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:


>> Nightscythes

Are amazing, but the Nightscythes themselves can't hold objectives, and they don't come in to at least Turn 2. Once dropped off they lose a lot of their mobility.

Don't get me wrong, Necron are still extremely mobile, but they don't come close to Wave Serpents or EJBs.

Ok, so I'm still muddling through some of the finer points of 7th so let me ask: why can't a Nightscythe hold an objective, at least if it was purchased as a dedicated transport for a troop unit in a CAD? Just curious...

The Nightscythe does not have a Hover mode. Zooming flyers are one of the listed units prohibited from scoring or contesting.

 Zagman wrote:

The Nightscythe does not have a Hover mode. Zooming flyers are one of the listed units prohibited from scoring or contesting.

Yup, the Necron faq escaped me for a moment. I didn't play much 6th and I still had them in my head as a fast skimmer. As you were.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 pocketcanoe wrote:
It seems like spamming fast, superscoring, killy units will win games.

I think this has almost always been true.

Yes, but more so this time around. The fact that superscoring units can take objectives from regular-scoring units. Before, if an objective was contested at all, you didn't score it.