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I played a fella with 4 flying hive tryants, and he has a psychic power to let him run after shooting, (I beleive onslaught?) Can he move, psychic, shoot, and then run off the table into ongoing reserves so he can come back on the next turn? He was adamant that he could, so i didn't protest. Did i get hosed? It really didn't matter either way, I had no hope after an awful first two turns.

As long as the MC is swooping it can leave the board and go into Ongoing reserves.

However it cannot go into Ongoing reserves on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves. So it will be there for at least a turn before it flies off.

BRB pg85 "It's quite likely that a Flyer making a zoom move will leave the board either deliberately or by accident. If this happens, the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it enters onoing reserves."

So, I'd interpret that as - because he's not making a zoom move, he can't enter ongoing reserves.

 Tigurius wrote:
BRB pg85 "It's quite likely that a Flyer making a zoom move will leave the board either deliberately or by accident. If this happens, the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it enters onoing reserves."

So, I'd interpret that as - because he's not making a zoom move, he can't enter ongoing reserves.

That looks like the rules for flyers, and not FMC's...

Ongoing Reserves

If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves.

Movement Distance

Models cannot voluntarily move off the board.

Flying Monstrous Creatures

Leaving Combat Airspace

It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves. Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield).

A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way that it will not leave the board on this turn.

A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping.

One of these things is not like the other. I mean people can argue that it is in fact "swooping" when it runs, but its pretty clear it's making a Run move which is not the same thing as Swooping.

I'd say no as it's running not swooping and only swooping allows you to leave the board.

Since people seem to have difficulty as of late of understanding grammar.

This

Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so.

Does not mean it can always deliberately leave the battlefield as there are restrictions on it , the restriction is from the previous sentence.


It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping

Whilst - While it is


It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping

or

While it is swooping it is quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board.


Later we know that it is in fact performing a RUN move that allows it to move 2D6 if it is swooping.

This does not mean it is swooping when it is making a run move as the rules are clear that there are actual multiple types of movements referred to as a MOVE, that have their own special rules.

The statement of if swooping does not mean that it is swoop running. It means that if it is swooping, when it Runs it gains 2d6 inches of movement, it's a special condition on Running.

Nor does this mean that it "stops" , swooping. As that is the mode of "flight" it is in.

Hollismason wrote:

Ongoing Reserves

If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves.

Movement Distance

Models cannot voluntarily move off the board.

Flying Monstrous Creatures

Leaving Combat Airspace

It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves. Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield).

A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way that it will not leave the board on this turn.

A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping.

One of these things is not like the other. I mean people can argue that it is in fact "swooping" when it runs, but its pretty clear it's making a Run move which is not the same thing as Swooping.

I'd say no as it's running not swooping and only swooping allows you to leave the board.

Since people seem to have difficulty as of late of understanding grammar.

This

Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so.

Does not mean it can always deliberately leave the battlefield as there are restrictions on it , the restriction is from the previous sentence.


It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping

Whilst - While it is


It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping

or

While it is swooping it is quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board.


Later we know that it is in fact performing a RUN move that allows it to move 2D6 if it is swooping.

This does not mean it is swooping when it is making a run move.

But the rule you quoted makes it very clear that "Swooping" is nothing more than a mode and not an action. So running while 'Swooping' fits the bill for 'that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping.'

Changing Flight Mode:
"...must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of it's next turn."

Swooping is a Flight Mode, not a type of Movement. It moves in this case like Jump Infantry.

When making a run move, it is still Swooping.

No because it has to follow the rules for Running which is a move which doesn't allow it to voluntarily leave the board due to the movement restriction. It's only allowed to leave the board just while swooping that's it's only allowance for leaving the board is if Swooping. Not running while swooping.

It just means it Runs.

Okay here is a good way to figure it out. If I flying monstrous creature runs, can it "move through units" or over them.

Hollismason wrote:
No because it has to follow the rules for Running which is a move which doesn't allow it to voluntarily leave the board due to the movement restriction. It's only allowed to leave the board just while swooping that's it's only allowance for leaving the board is if Swooping. Not running while swooping.

"A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping."

"It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so."

It has its own rules for running.

Whether it's making a normal move, or a run move, it's still Swooping.
And while Swooping (which lasts a full game turn) it can leave Combat Airspace.

Hollismason wrote:

It just means it Runs.

Okay here is a good way to figure it out. If I flying monstrous creature runs, can it "move through units" or over them.

It runs like normal... but it moves 2D6" instead of the normal D6" and it must move straight forward. The rules for leaving the board say that he can do so while "Swooping". He is "Swooping" until the beginning of his next turn and can therefore leave the board at any point while "Swooping". Including during the shooting phase on a run move.

Please see my previous statement on understanding grammar.

It's not swooping, I've stated why and the reason what that sentence refers to.

Again, if it making a Run Move, is it allowed to ignore terrain?

GLIDING

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding, it moves, Runs and charges exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature.



SWOOPING

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature, with the following exceptions: <<----
This is really important to read. Those are exceptions to the rules of moving like a Jump Monstrous Creature.

How do Jump Monstrous Creatures run?
If not using its jump pack, a model moves as a normal model of its type
How do Monstrous Creatures run?
The run normally unless they have another rule that stops them from doing it.
That's a clarification that if it's using its Swooping mode that when it does make a Run move it moves 2D6. That's not a "swooping " while running.

It's running, not swooping and running at the same time.

A easy way to figure this out is, if a FMC that is swooping runs, can it run through intervening enemy units?

A run follows the normal movement rules, if you are wondering.

All of those exceptions for being in Swoop mode do not magically add on to whatever it is you are trying to do, the FMC is doing a "swooping run", it's doing a Run. All that tells us is if it is in Swoop mode and it runs it runs 2d6.

Running while swooping does not equal Swoop Running, your inventing a new mode of movement.

Hollismason wrote:

It's running, not swooping and running at the same time.

"A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping."

When does this rule kick in? When the FMC is Swooping.

And yet you are saying that the FMC isn't swooping and running at the same time? How can that be?

The word "Swooping" (with a capital S) as used in this section of the rulebook is referring to the flight mode. Not an action. So yes he can be running (the action) while Swooping (the flight mode).

Simple question, when it makes a Run move, is the model Swooping?

No it is not. Can it run through a enemy unit? No.

It still follows the rules for running which don't allow it to leave the board, do not allow it to end its move on top of another model, does not allow it to ignore terrain, does not allow it to end it's move closer than 1 inch to a enemy model, does not allow it to shoot etc..

It has to follow all of the restrictions that are placed on running.

All that sentence says that is if it is Swooping and it elects to make a RUN move, something seperate from a Normal move. Then it moves 2D6. That's it. It's not giving it any special permissions to ignore any of the other restrictions for running.

Hollismason wrote:
No it is not. Can it run through a enemy unit? No.

It still follows the rules for running which don't allow it to leave the board, do not allow it to end its move on top of another model, does not allow it to ignore terrain, does not allow it to end it's move closer than 1 inch to a enemy model, does not allow it to shoot etc..

It has to follow all of the restrictions that are placed on running.

All that sentence says that is if it is Swooping and it elects to make a RUN move, something seperate from a Normal move. Then it moves 2D6. That's it. It's not giving it any special permissions to ignore any of the other restrictions for running.

"It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so."

This overrides the restriction set by the Run rules that do not allow it to leave the board. Of course that would assume you accept the fact that it is indeed running while Swooping.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Changing Flight Mode:
"...must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of it's next turn."

This makes it clear that a FMC is Swooping for an entire game turn. No matter what action it is performing during that time, it is still "Swooping". This includes when making a Run move.

Hollismason wrote:
All that sentence says that is if it is Swooping and it elects to make a RUN move, something seperate from a Normal move. Then it moves 2D6. That's it. It's not giving it any special permissions to ignore any of the other restrictions for running.

If Swooping is a movement type rather than a mode (your argument) the sentence doesn't parse.

"A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping."

A FMC that elects to <movement type> can move up to 2d6" straight forwards if <movement type>.
You cannot do any movement type other than Run during the shooting phase, so it's literally impossible to trigger this sentence.

This proves that your opinion on how the rule works is incorrect and that Swooping is a movement mode rather than a movement type.

If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a [u]Jump Monstrous Creature[/u], with the following exceptions:

• • It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".

When it makes a RUN MOVE, it acts like a Jump Monstrous Creature.


The only exception to that

Is

When it does make a RUN MOVE if in Swoop it makes a RUN MOVE as a JUMP MONSTROUS CREATURE, 2d6.

RUN MOVE != Swooping Flight Run Move.

Hollismason wrote:
No it is not. Can it run through a enemy unit? No.

At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn.

This rule disagrees. For a whole game turn it is Swooping, this doesn't just apply during the movement phase.

During movement it moves like a JMC, that's what allows it to move over an enemy unit.

There's no such thing as a "Swooping Move", it's a flight mode that the model chooses.

If it's not Swooping in the Shooting Phase, then it can't be Swooping in the Assault phase either, so it can be charged. But we all know that isn't correct.

Also the rule that governs how this Model runs is found under the heading "Swooping".

Hollismason wrote:No it is not. Can it run through a enemy unit? No.

If it does it's special version of Run while Swooping, yes, since it goes over them, not through them. Same answer for terrain,.

Hollismason wrote:

RUN MOVE != Swooping Flight Move.

...but he is still in Swooping flight mode which is the only requirement for being allowed to leave the board. Though 'Swooping Flight Move' doesn't exist in the rules, you're referring to the movement rules for a Swooping FMC.

This is probably one of the most clear-cut rules in the book. You're thinking way too hard about this.

Hollismason wrote:
RUN MOVE != Swooping Flight Move.

Theres no such thing as a "Swooping Flight Move".

It makes a move while Swooping.
Shooting phase it's still Swooping.
Assault phase... swooping.

It's not "swoop running", it's just making a normal run move that moves it 2D6. It doesn't matter what it's "mode" is it's not swooping, it's running.

You are inventing a movement called " Swooping Run Move" and it just doesn't exist.

It also isn't allowed to move over models when running either. It literally has to follow all the rules of running, except that it moves 2D6.

It is making a Run Move, it makes a Run move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature except it moves 2d6.

Also, didn't this come up in like 6th or something.I think we've had this exact argument for 6th like literally the exact same argument.

Hollismason wrote:
It's not "swoop running", it's just making a normal run move that moves it 2D6. It doesn't matter what it's "mode" is it's not swooping, it's running.

You are inventing a movement called " Swooing Run Move" and it just doesn't exist.

It also isn't allowed to move over models when running either. It literally has to follow all the rules of running, except that it moves 2D6.

Also, didn't this come up in like 6th or something.

Rules disagree with you and have been posted several times.

"A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping."

Just give up already.

Hollismason wrote:
It's not "swoop running", it's just making a normal run move that moves it 2D6. It doesn't matter what it's "mode" is it's not swooping, it's running.

You are inventing a movement called " Swooping Run Move" and it just doesn't exist.

It also isn't allowed to move over models when running either. It literally has to follow all the rules of running, except that it moves 2D6.

It is making a Run Move, it makes a Run move exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature except it moves 2d6.

Also, didn't this come up in like 6th or something.I think we've had this exact argument for 6th like literally the exact same argument.

We haven't invented anything. Lets review the rules...

Changing Flight Mode:
"...must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of it's next turn."

A FMC is Swooping or Gliding at all times. It can not exist unless it is doing one or the other. There is no "Swooping Flight Move" or "Swooping Run Move". There is just Swooping.

It’s quite likely that a Flying Monstrous Creature will leave the board whilst Swooping. Indeed it can, unlike other units, deliberately do so. If this happens, whether deliberate or not, the unit is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves. Whilst in Reserve, the unit cannot change flight mode (it’s too busy trying to get back to the battlefield).

A Flying Monstrous Creature cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way that it will not leave the board on this turn.

A Flying Monstrous Creature that elects to Run can move up to 2D6" straight forwards if Swooping.

A FMC can leave the board when Swooping.

A FMC can perform a Run when Swooping.

A FMC can shoot when Swooping.

A FMC can cast psychic powers when Swooping.

So to answer the OPs question... Yes a FMC can do all those things when Swooping. He can move... cast a power... shoot... then run (with the power onslaught allowing both) and leave the board.

EDIT: I just realized that the Tyranid power Onslaught requires that the model Run first THEN shoot so no your opponent could not Shoot THEN run to leave the board. He could however cast a shooting psychic power in the psychic phase THEN run off the board in the shooting phase.

It runs and follows the rules Running for a Jump Monstrous Creature, it's not a additive.

Hollismason wrote:
It runs and follows the rules Running for a Jump Monstrous Creature, it's not a additive.

Ok, I've shown you where we have permission to leave the board 'whilst Swooping'. Show me the denial for leaving the board when making a Run move whilst Swooping.

Hollismason wrote:
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Swooping, it moves exactly like a [u]Jump Monstrous Creature[/u], with the following exceptions:

• • It must move at least 12" and can move up to 24".

When it makes a RUN MOVE, it acts like a Jump Monstrous Creature.


The only exception to that

Is

When it does make a RUN MOVE if in Swoop it makes a RUN MOVE as a JUMP MONSTROUS CREATURE, 2d6.

RUN MOVE != Swooping Flight Run Move.

"Swooping" as referred to in the FMC rules is a movement mode, not a movement type. Agreed?

It's actually a rule exception to how Jump Monstrous Creatures move. All of those are rule exceptions.

I've already pointed out that it moves and runs like a Jump Monstrous Creature, there is no such thing as a Swooping FMC.

The only exception it has with running is that it moves 2d6. It cannot voluntarily leave the board while running it's not swooping. It's running.

There's no such thing really as a "swoop move" It's just a short term phrase for saying " it's using the rules exception for the swoop rule for moving which states its difference".

Again, it runs as a Jump Monstrous Creature, the only exceptions to that are the rules stated below that.

Hollismason wrote:
I've already pointed out that it moves and runs like a Jump Monstrous Creature, there is no such thing as a Swooping FMC.

No such thing? Maybe you should tell the authors of the rulebook that.

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can never Fall Back.

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule.

There's more, but that should be enough to prove your statement incorrect.
Given that, would you like to revaluate your argument?