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This may be a stupid and straightforward question but im getting a little confused with the 7e wound allocation rules for shooting.

Apologies im reading the ebook version so im not sure if the page numbers are the same or not (im assuming not).

The BRB states in the "Allocating Wounds and Removing Casualties > Out of Range" section (p.413/414) If none of the firing models are in range of a particular model in the target unit, then wounds cannot be allocated to it." and then goes on to state "If there are no models in the target unit that are in range, all remaining wounds in the pool are lost."

So my confusion in this section is the situation when you are shooting at a squad that has for instance 3 models within range of 12" the rest are outside that range. Then you declare an attack with 5 termigants lets say. 3 have fleshborers and 2 have spinefists (so all 5 weapons ate 12" range). All shots wound giving 5 wounds, 3 fleshborer wounds and 2 spinefist wounds. Lets assume the 3 enemies in range die to the fleshborer wounds.

Now would the following 2 spinefist wounds be discarded as there are no more models within range or would those wounds be spilled over to the other members of the enemy squad?

Sorry if some find the answer to this obvious. Im just going in circles at this particular scenario.

Thanks.

They would be lost as nothing else is in range.

That scenario would result in 5 wounds on 3 models. A 12" weapon can only effect models within 12" inches.

Alternatively in the scenario above if all 5 weapons were fleshborers and cause 5 wounds would the maximum casualties the squad being fired upon take be 3? Or would those wounds spill to the other "out of range" members of the squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so no matter what in this scenario, no matter the weapon type the only models that can be killed at those within 12"

Thanks for the replys guys.

Correct, you cannot kill what is out of your range

Yeah awesome. As i said for some reason i was having issues with the wording and confusing myself.

Thanks for clearing it up

What if some models have 24" range, these Shoot first and kill the only models within 12", do the remaining models with 12" range miss?

Yes. So don't fire things in the wrong order.

Your original scenario is flawed. You do not fire the Fleshborers and the spine fists at the same time. You pick 1 weapon, fully resolve all shots from that weapon(from all models firing that weapon), then move on to the next weapon.

In 6th, there was a dumb edge case where weapons could wound something out of its range, because you checked the max range of the weapon when determining if you could fire, but you only checked the longest max range in the unit when determining where the wounds could be assigned. So a unit of Burna Boyz (Template) with a Mek carrying a Big Shoota (36") could put Burna wounds on models up to 36" away.

7th has fixed this by having you completely resolve each weapon (To Hit, Wound, saves) before moving on to the next. It's a bit annoying because you can't designate different colors of dice and get it over with in a single roll, but it does make the allocation of wounds from drastically different weapons a bit more sensible.

Should also note that if you're dealing with Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons, which can have two ranges depending on how you fire them, you always use its maximum unaltered range when applying wounds.

For example if a Space Marine rapid fires a boltgun at an Ork unit where only one Ork model is within 12", and scores 2 wounds, you remove the Ork within 12" and then remove the next closest Ork even if it's beyond 12".

Pg 35, "Out Of Range" paragraph.

I thought I should point this out because I only found out about this today!

Boltguns, and other rapid fire weapons, never have a 12 inch (Or 1/2 their) range.

They just get 2 shots if the target is within half of the weapons max range.

The same applies to Salvo weapons, they always have their maximum range. Sometimes they can only shoot at half range, but that's exactly what it is, half range.

I just wish GW would out and say Blasts ignore the Out of Sight rule (pg 35).

As it stands, once the visible models die the wound pools collapse. At that point you can't allocate to the nearest model anymore. It's even worse now in this edition since the visible models aren't determined by the whole unit like in 6th, but only the models firing the blast weapon. Stealth nerf to blasts?

 Tarrasq wrote:
I just wish GW would out and say Blasts ignore the Out of Sight rule (pg 35).

As it stands, once the visible models die the wound pools collapse. At that point you can't allocate to the nearest model anymore. It's even worse now in this edition since the visible models aren't determined by the whole unit like in 6th, but only the models firing the blast weapon. Stealth nerf to blasts?

They do.... the rules for blasts in 7th ed clearly override LoS requirements both for hitting and for allocating wounds. (in 6h ed the wording only covered the first part, now it covers both.)

 Tarrasq wrote:
I just wish GW would out and say Blasts ignore the Out of Sight rule (pg 35).

As it stands, once the visible models die the wound pools collapse. At that point you can't allocate to the nearest model anymore. It's even worse now in this edition since the visible models aren't determined by the whole unit like in 6th, but only the models firing the blast weapon. Stealth nerf to blasts?

The Blast rules explciitly, and with no ambiguity, state to ignore the LOS requirement, and to always remove the closest model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I just wish GW would out and say Blasts ignore the Out of Sight rule (pg 35).

As it stands, once the visible models die the wound pools collapse. At that point you can't allocate to the nearest model anymore. It's even worse now in this edition since the visible models aren't determined by the whole unit like in 6th, but only the models firing the blast weapon. Stealth nerf to blasts?

The Blast rules explciitly, and with no ambiguity, state to ignore the LOS requirement, and to always remove the closest model.

I don't have my rulebook with me so I may be wrong in remembering.

If I have a unit with bolters and a plasma cannon and the bolters fire first and kill all the visible models, can I still fire the plasma cannon? I remembered the rules for blast asks the player to place the template over a model visible to the firer.

 Bludbaff wrote:
In 6th, there was a dumb edge case where weapons could wound something out of its range, because you checked the max range of the weapon when determining if you could fire, but you only checked the longest max range in the unit when determining where the wounds could be assigned. So a unit of Burna Boyz (Template) with a Mek carrying a Big Shoota (36") could put Burna wounds on models up to 36" away.

How is that possible? When you place the template, how many models 36" away can you fit under it? What about a unit with 1 heavy bolter (36") and 4 bolters (24"), how would you cause wounds in the first place with the bolters as by checking the range you'd not have it?

We still play 6th edition and do not plan to change to 7th anytime soon.

Naw wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
In 6th, there was a dumb edge case where weapons could wound something out of its range, because you checked the max range of the weapon when determining if you could fire, but you only checked the longest max range in the unit when determining where the wounds could be assigned. So a unit of Burna Boyz (Template) with a Mek carrying a Big Shoota (36") could put Burna wounds on models up to 36" away.

How is that possible? When you place the template, how many models 36" away can you fit under it? What about a unit with 1 heavy bolter (36") and 4 bolters (24"), how would you cause wounds in the first place with the bolters as by checking the range you'd not have it?

We still play 6th edition and do not plan to change to 7th anytime soon.

Because that's how it worked in 6th edition. You could wound models 13"+ away with 12" range guns, as long as you had a weapon with a longer range.

Normally the 8" templates would only be able to wound up to 8" away. (Say they caused 20 wounds, but only 5 models are actually under each template.) You can only wound the front 5 models. You add a 36" weapon to that group an suddenly those 20 wounds can spread up to 36" away.

 milkboy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Tarrasq wrote:
I just wish GW would out and say Blasts ignore the Out of Sight rule (pg 35).

As it stands, once the visible models die the wound pools collapse. At that point you can't allocate to the nearest model anymore. It's even worse now in this edition since the visible models aren't determined by the whole unit like in 6th, but only the models firing the blast weapon. Stealth nerf to blasts?

The Blast rules explciitly, and with no ambiguity, state to ignore the LOS requirement, and to always remove the closest model.

I don't have my rulebook with me so I may be wrong in remembering.

If I have a unit with bolters and a plasma cannon and the bolters fire first and kill all the visible models, can I still fire the plasma cannon? I remembered the rules for blast asks the player to place the template over a model visible to the firer.

You are correct, you do have to initially place the blast over a model you have LoS to, but once it scatters to it's final destination, LoS is irrelevent to either hits or wound allocation. And of course if it's barrage, then LoS matters not at all.

 Ond Angel wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
In 6th, there was a dumb edge case where weapons could wound something out of its range, because you checked the max range of the weapon when determining if you could fire, but you only checked the longest max range in the unit when determining where the wounds could be assigned. So a unit of Burna Boyz (Template) with a Mek carrying a Big Shoota (36") could put Burna wounds on models up to 36" away.

How is that possible? When you place the template, how many models 36" away can you fit under it? What about a unit with 1 heavy bolter (36") and 4 bolters (24"), how would you cause wounds in the first place with the bolters as by checking the range you'd not have it?

We still play 6th edition and do not plan to change to 7th anytime soon.

Because that's how it worked in 6th edition. You could wound models 13"+ away with 12" range guns, as long as you had a weapon with a longer range.

Okay, that is not how we play it, ever. How about the template then? Certainly you are not going to claim that as you are not able to place the template then all models are hit?

Normally the 8" templates would only be able to wound up to 8" away. (Say they caused 20 wounds, but only 5 models are actually under each template.) You can only wound the front 5 models. You add a 36" weapon to that group an suddenly those 20 wounds can spread up to 36" away.

And you do, sort of... Templates are placed from the model, there are no enemies beneath, certainly you can't then cause wounds.

I do not come to the above interpretation, no matter how hard I try.

Naw wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
In 6th, there was a dumb edge case where weapons could wound something out of its range, because you checked the max range of the weapon when determining if you could fire, but you only checked the longest max range in the unit when determining where the wounds could be assigned. So a unit of Burna Boyz (Template) with a Mek carrying a Big Shoota (36") could put Burna wounds on models up to 36" away.

How is that possible? When you place the template, how many models 36" away can you fit under it? What about a unit with 1 heavy bolter (36") and 4 bolters (24"), how would you cause wounds in the first place with the bolters as by checking the range you'd not have it?

We still play 6th edition and do not plan to change to 7th anytime soon.

Because that's how it worked in 6th edition. You could wound models 13"+ away with 12" range guns, as long as you had a weapon with a longer range.

Okay, that is not how we play it, ever. How about the template then? Certainly you are not going to claim that as you are not able to place the template then all models are hit?

Normally the 8" templates would only be able to wound up to 8" away. (Say they caused 20 wounds, but only 5 models are actually under each template.) You can only wound the front 5 models. You add a 36" weapon to that group an suddenly those 20 wounds can spread up to 36" away.

And you do, sort of... Templates are placed from the model, there are no enemies beneath, certainly you can't then cause wounds.

I do not come to the above interpretation, no matter how hard I try.

If the templates cannot hit any models, then you cannot cause wounds with it.
I was saying that the ones that can hit models will spread those wounds as far as the longest range weapon from that unit.

Edit: Although, this is off topic from the OP.

Hey Naw, this article may help to explain what was happening with the 6th Ed shooting rules.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/01/kill-zones-40k-shooting-post-faq/

The diagrams will help.

Naw wrote:

 Ond Angel wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Bludbaff wrote:
In 6th, there was a dumb edge case where weapons could wound something out of its range, because you checked the max range of the weapon when determining if you could fire, but you only checked the longest max range in the unit when determining where the wounds could be assigned. So a unit of Burna Boyz (Template) with a Mek carrying a Big Shoota (36") could put Burna wounds on models up to 36" away.

How is that possible? When you place the template, how many models 36" away can you fit under it? What about a unit with 1 heavy bolter (36") and 4 bolters (24"), how would you cause wounds in the first place with the bolters as by checking the range you'd not have it?

We still play 6th edition and do not plan to change to 7th anytime soon.

Because that's how it worked in 6th edition. You could wound models 13"+ away with 12" range guns, as long as you had a weapon with a longer range.

Okay, that is not how we play it, ever. How about the template then? Certainly you are not going to claim that as you are not able to place the template then all models are hit?

Normally the 8" templates would only be able to wound up to 8" away. (Say they caused 20 wounds, but only 5 models are actually under each template.) You can only wound the front 5 models. You add a 36" weapon to that group an suddenly those 20 wounds can spread up to 36" away.

And you do, sort of... Templates are placed from the model, there are no enemies beneath, certainly you can't then cause wounds.

I do not come to the above interpretation, no matter how hard I try.

To start out, all models firing are in range to at least one model - oterhwsie they cannot fire. That is clear

Say only 1 model can fit under the template. While that template can only generate one hit, and one wound, that one wound was not, in 6th, restricted to only killing that one model. All that mattered, post FAQ, was that you could only allocate wounds out to the weapon that was shot that has the highest range. So if you shot a bolter, that "flamer" wound could be used to kill a model 24" away.

So 10 pistols, all 11.9" away from the same model, could all fire, all wound, and remove models from say 24" away, as long as a bolter had fired as well. A group of burna boyz could fire from a BW and hurt models X" if a mek fired a weapon with range X", etc.

If youre not playing it this way, then youre playing by the BRB rule, which is even more loose. In the BRB the ONLY thing that matters for "out of range" is whetehr you were in range to start with. So in my 10 pistol example you did not need the bolter, you coudl wound as far away as you like. The FAQ completely rewrote this rule to limit the range to the highest range of all weapons that shot, yet was apparently hailed by some as "not realistic" compared to the old, more abstract rules.....

Sorry to derail the thread even further.

@Milkboy/Nos: That diagram shows how we play it, so no templates hitting models 36" away. I guess the example given was bad, as it got me wondering

Now back to the 7e allocation..

Define "hit"

If you mean "causing damage to", then the 6th edition rules do allow this. If you meant "hit" as in literally hitting the model with the template, then that isnt what we're saying at all

In 6th, if your template covers 5 models, but youre firing a ewapon with a 24" range, then the wound pool - there is ONLY ONE wound pool unless dealing with blasts - does not care the range of the weapon that caused those wounds. So your 5 wounds from the template can go in with 12 wounds from other weapons, and when allocated those "flamner wounds" can be alloacted (post FAQ) anywhere up to the 24" range of the other weapon.

For example: vulcan megabolter and heavy flamer. I hit 5 models with the flamer, causing 4 wounds. THe vulcan wounds 10 models. As per 6th I can choose to allocate the VMB wounds first, killing the first 10 4+ save models not in cover / invulnerable save. The next 5 models, all 24"+ away, can now have the Heavy flamer wounds allocated to them.

Those models were never *hit* but can indeed, under 6th, have wounds *allocated* to them, in this case.

I feel the way the 7e rules are written, yes may take a little longer but overall I like them more. Stops these strange or exploiting ways you can play with wound allocation in 6th.