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So here is a situation which is causing a bit of a row at my local store. The rulebook states that models receive cover from intervening models exactly like terrain. Terrain normally requires 25% obscuration. The rules then go on to give examples that make it a bit more unclear. So consider this situation: an AM veteran squad is targeting a Carnifex. In between the squad and the Carnifex is a unit of three Ripper bases (we'll assume in B2B with no visible gaps). Does the Carnifex receive a 5+ cover save from the intervening models even though they are too small to provide the 25% obscuration normally required by terrain?

If the shot is going "through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer." (The Shooting Phase section, Intervening models sub-section).

So it depends on if the shots are going over or through the gaps between models in the Ripper unit.

Your answer is a resounding, Maybe. which of course is not an option there in the poll.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If the shot is going "through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer." (The Shooting Phase section, Intervening models sub-section).

So it depends on if the shots are going over or through the gaps between models in the Ripper unit.

Your answer is a resounding, Maybe. which of course is not an option there in the poll.

Edited for the "Maybe"

I understand the second part of that paragraph ("through gaps between models in an intervening unit") but I don't believe it overrules the preceeding sentence that says intervening units provide cover exactly like terrain. I think the second part of the paragraph is clarification that cover exists on a by unit, not model, basis (i.e. if the target unit is in cover via intervening models from the firing unit, the entire unit receives the benefit).

The clause 'even if completely visible' would over-write any requirement for a certain percentage of the Model to be obscured.
Also Cover Saves function like any other Save, determined by the Model and not the Unit as a whole.

Real Question about your poll:
Do you mean that the Model would have to be 25% or more Obscured to get the Cover Save?
Cause the way it is currently reading, it asks if there needs to be an intervening Unit between Firing Unit and Targeting Unit....

JinxDragon wrote:
The clause 'even if completely visible' would over-write any requirement for a certain percentage of the Model to be obscured.
Also Cover Saves function like any other Save, determined by the Model and not the Unit as a whole.

Real Question about your poll:
Do you mean that the Model would have to be 25% or more Obscured to get the Cover Save?
Cause the way it is currently reading, it asks if there needs to be an intervening Unit between Firing Unit and Targeting Unit....

Except "even if completely visible" applies only in the clause about shooting between models. So if the AM plasma gunner can cleanly see the carnifex but the carnifex is obscured to other members of the plasma gunner's squad, the carnifex counts as obscured for the plasma gunner as well. My question is: what happens if the intervening models aren't big enough to provide the 25%+ obscuration normally required?

Yes, would the model have to be 25% or more obscured to get the save?

PanzerLeader wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
The clause 'even if completely visible' would over-write any requirement for a certain percentage of the Model to be obscured.
Also Cover Saves function like any other Save, determined by the Model and not the Unit as a whole.

Real Question about your poll:
Do you mean that the Model would have to be 25% or more Obscured to get the Cover Save?
Cause the way it is currently reading, it asks if there needs to be an intervening Unit between Firing Unit and Targeting Unit....

Except "even if completely visible" applies only in the clause about shooting between models. So if the AM plasma gunner can cleanly see the carnifex but the carnifex is obscured to other members of the plasma gunner's squad, the carnifex counts as obscured for the plasma gunner as well. My question is: what happens if the intervening models aren't big enough to provide the 25%+ obscuration normally required?

Yes, would the model have to be 25% or more obscured to get the save?

Actually cover is done by weapon groups LOS now, not the unit. So if the plasma gunner had clear sight the carnifex would not get cover from it.

Correction:
Read that sentence as 'obscured by other members' instead of 'obscured to other members,' which change the situation greatly as a Models own Unit is ignored for Intervening Models.

Something else to keep in mind:
Are there still gaps between the individual Models in a Unit if you are unable to see the second Model?

As we now have permission to draw Line of Sight for the shot from any point on the Target from any point on the Firer. Given that the Rule triggers if the Shot is going through these gaps, in relation to Line of Sight requirements, it is easy to state if the Line of Sight can be drawn through the gap then the Shot is travelling through the gap. Therefore it doesn't matter if only one Model is obscuring the target, as the gap is measured between Models in the intervening Unit as a whole and not between individual Models which both are causing said obstruction and the shot is going through one such gap. Otherwise there would be no point in having a clause talking about the gaps between individual Models, the 25% obscured would be all that matters, as how many times can bunch of Models shoot and have only gaps 'obscuring' the target....

Well there is a time when it matters:
If that one Model is the end of a Unit, obscuring the target a little bit, but the shot would be drawn on the side which is lacking a 'gap.'

There are two ways to get a cover save from terrain, page 105 requires that the model be 25% obscured when "in cover behind" and no 25% requirement for models being 'in' a piece of terrain.

For intervening models, page 38, it says "if a target is partially obscured from the firer by models from a third unit... it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit... because the firer has an elevated position"

If a target is partially obscured, it counts the same as being behind terrain. In every other place it mentions obscured it refers to 25% obscured, whereas here partially would mean >0%.


Also remember that line of site is drawn from anywhere on a models body, not just the eyes any more.

Therefore on a level field if a ripper swarm covers any part of the carnifexes body (for instance the toes) then that carnifex along with any model between it and last ripper in the unit would get a cover save.

JinxDragon wrote:
Correction:
Read that sentence as 'obscured by other members' instead of 'obscured to other members,' which change the situation greatly as a Models own Unit is ignored for Intervening Models.

Something else to keep in mind:
Do the gaps between the individual Models in a Unit simply vanish because the eyes focus is narrowed to a point where it can't see the other Models?

As we now have permission to draw Line of Sight for the shot from any point on the Target from any point on the Firer, this line will undoubtedly travel through the gaps between the individual Models of an intervening Unit. Given that the Rule triggers if the Shot is going through these gaps, in relation to Line of Sight requirements, it is easy to state if the Line of Sight can be drawn through the gap then the Shot is travelling through the gap. It doesn't matter if only one Model is obscuring the target because the gap is measured between Models in the intervening Unit as a whole, and not between individual Models which both are causing said obstruction.

Well there is a time when it matters, if that one Model is the end of a Unit and the only Model obscuring the target in any way... the shot won't go through a gap in that one situation.

So back to the simple example: A carnifex is being shot at by a unit of AM veterans with plasma guns. A unit of three ripper bases is in between the AM squad and the carnifex. Does the carnifex receive a cover save? There are intervening models but they do not provide 25+% obscuration which is an implied requirement since the rules also say intervening models provide cover saves exactly like terrain.

Personally, I would answer "Yes, unless it is impossible to draw the Line of Sight through one of the Intervening Model's gaps between the Firing Model and the Target" until someone can provide me with instructions on how to draw a 'Line of Shot' that would allow us to determine if the shot itself passed through a gap to trigger the Rule or not....

That really does feel so strange though; determining if the Shot can go through the space between models to see if it gets a Cover save or not. If it can go through the gap unmolested then the Cover Save is granted but should the Model be interfering with the shot enough, but not enough, then the shot doesn't generated a Cover save. However that Rule has to exist for the sole situation where Models don't obscure the target more then 25%, because the sentence prior to it already covers what happens if an individual Model obscures the target more then 25%. Given that the 'gap' it talks will exist for every Unit of more then one Model, regardless of where the Models are positioned, it is a veritable that exists even in the scenario where we only have an individual Model from that Unit in a position to obscure.

Therefore, if said model is not big enough to obscure 25% or more, that is more then enough of a gap for the Shot to go through.

JinxDragon wrote:
Personally, I would answer "Yes, unless it is impossible to draw the Line of Sight through one of the Intervening Model's gaps between the Firing Model and the Target" until someone can provide me with instructions on how to draw a 'Line of Shot' that would allow us to determine if the shot itself passed through a gap to trigger the Rule or not....

That really does feel so strange though; determining if the Shot can go through the space between models to see if it gets a Cover save or not. If it can go through the gap unmolested then the Cover Save is granted but should the Model be interfering with the shot enough, but not enough, then the shot doesn't generated a Cover save. However that Rule has to exist for the sole situation where Models don't obscure the target more then 25%, because the sentence prior to it already covers what happens if an individual Model obscures the target more then 25%. Given that the 'gap' it talks will exist for every Unit of more then one Model, regardless of where the Models are positioned, it is a veritable that exists even in the scenario where we only have an individual Model from that Unit in a position to obscure.

Therefore, if said model is not big enough to obscure 25% or more, that is more then enough of a gap for the Shot to go through.

Yup. This.

So if your Ork Boyz are on the ground, and there are some Gaunts in front of a Carnifex, and your boyz are firing through the gaps of the Termigaunt models, it doesn't matter that you can fully see the Carnifex, or that you can draw LoS to parts of the carnifex's upper body that might not go through the gaps of the Termigaunts. He still gets a save.

Now, if your Boyz are standing in a ruin, or on a hill, and have an elevated position such that their shots are all going over the heads of the Termigaunts, then even if they're shooting between the gaps in models, their elevation is allowing them to completely fire over the Termigaunts, so the Carnifex gets no cover save.

PanzerLeader wrote:
So back to the simple example: A carnifex is being shot at by a unit of AM veterans with plasma guns. A unit of three ripper bases is in between the AM squad and the carnifex. Does the carnifex receive a cover save? There are intervening models but they do not provide 25+% obscuration which is an implied requirement since the rules also say intervening models provide cover saves exactly like terrain.

How long is a piece of string?

Both questions are impossible to answer without looking at them.

Get down and draw Line of sight with the veterans with plasma guns, if the shot passes through the gaps in the ripper unit, even if it is completely visible to the firer, then the target will get a cover save.

This is not something we are going to be able to figure out for you, you need to actually set the models up and trace Line of Sight for yourself and see if they get the save.

The 25+% obscuration which is a requirement, but if the shot goes through the gaps in a unit, that is overridden by the clause "even if it is completely visible to the firer"

The "just like terrain" is for the reverse situation. A line of boyz is firing at a unit of guants behind a carnifex. The left most ork can see only one guant, and it is obscured behind the carnifex. The right most ork can see the whole unit. All models are in cover, all are viable wound targets per the terrain rules.

I think that if you're shooting at a large model over a smaller one, the shot is going over. I'll not be having a wraithknight with nid allies claiming cover from intervening rippers.

firing between the gaps assumes the units are the same height. obscuring a carnifexes ankles does not a cover save make.

 some bloke wrote:
I think that if you're shooting at a large model over a smaller one, the shot is going over.

Only if the shots actually go over the unit though.

I'll not be having a wraithknight with nid allies claiming cover from intervening rippers.

You could in the right situation.

firing between the gaps assumes the units are the same height. obscuring a carnifexes ankles does not a cover save make.

No it doesnt.

If you can draw Line of sight over a unit and have a full view of the model you are firing at, then no cover.

But if you draw Line of sight through a unit even if you have a full view of the model you are firing at, then that model can claim a cover save.

It all depends on the positioning of the models on the battlefield relative to each other though.

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you can draw Line of sight over a unit and have a full view of the model you are firing at, then no cover.

But if you can draw Line of sight over a unit even if you have a full view of the model you are firing at, then that model can claim a cover save.

Is there a typo in here, or am I just not seeing the difference? In both sentences, you indicate unit A drawing line of sight over Unit B to shoot Unit C. In both cases, you're saying Unit A can fully see Unit C, but in the bottom line you're saying they cannot claim cover, where in the first you say the opposite.

I'm not arguing with your conclusions, (today) I'm just looking for some clarification.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
If you can draw Line of sight over a unit and have a full view of the model you are firing at, then no cover.

But if you can draw Line of sight over a unit even if you have a full view of the model you are firing at, then that model can claim a cover save.

Is there a typo in here, or am I just not seeing the difference? In both sentences, you indicate unit A drawing line of sight over Unit B to shoot Unit C. In both cases, you're saying Unit A can fully see Unit C, but in the bottom line you're saying they cannot claim cover, where in the first you say the opposite.

I'm not arguing with your conclusions, (today) I'm just looking for some clarification.

Yes sorry there was a typo.

the second line should say this:

But if you draw Line of sight through a unit even if you have a full view of the model you are firing at, then that model can claim a cover save. (And I fixed my post).

So if correctly modeled, scarabs would almost never give up a cover save to guys behind them?

 Jimsolo wrote:
So if correctly modeled, scarabs would almost never give up a cover save to guys behind them?

It depends on the position of the shooting models in relation to the scarabs and the target unit.

Assuming a perfectly flat surface than most likely not.

If you really want to get into shenanigans, get the old metal scarabs that are like 4mm tall and hide them behind stuff.

Good luck getting LOS to those things.

I am still confused by the replies:

Is it then Yes, or NO?

The OP is quite clear: let's think a line of 25 riper bases, from edge to edge, between a Carnifex and a (1) Marine with a gun. Cover or not to Cover?

-Carnifex less than 25% hidden (pretty much just the toes)
-No between (swarms are all B2B)
- technically 5% of the model is "obscured"

 BlackTalos wrote:
I am still confused by the replies:

Is it then Yes, or NO?

The OP is quite clear: let's think a line of 25 riper bases, from edge to edge, between a Carnifex and a (1) Marine with a gun. Cover or not to Cover?

-Carnifex less than 25% hidden (pretty much just the toes)
-No between (swarms are all B2B)
- technically 5% of the model is "obscured"

Hard to say.

It depends on the position of the shooting models in relation to the scarabs and the target unit.

If any of the shots go through the gaps in the ripper unit, then the Carnifex gets the benefit of the cover save.

If they go over the gaps then then the Carnifex does not get the benefit of the cover save.

Ok, i will endeavor to find a Picture which would make the question clearer.

Edit: Sorry very bad picture, but what if this was true LoS:


Warrior most definitely gets Cover, but would the Carnifex too?

(Assuming the Gaunts are not 1 squad - as between the 3 on each side that would qualify)

Basically this The red arrow is the shot and the pic denotes the line of sight the model firing has.

The first pic is no cover save, the second gets a cover save.

The thing is, if you say yes to this... What if the model firing, or even the model being shot at, was on a tile that puts him on an elevation that's 2cm taller than the elevation everyone else is at? What if that's 2 inches instead? Does it or does it not get a cover save because it's on a different plane of elevation?

I think this is a complete maybe.

 Enigwolf wrote:
The thing is, if you say yes to this... What if the model firing, or even the model being shot at, was on a tile that puts him on an elevation that's 2cm taller than the elevation everyone else is at? What if that's 2 inches instead? Does it or does it not get a cover save because it's on a different plane of elevation?

I think this is a complete maybe.

I posted two pics from a firing models point of view. the top one is not firing though gaps in the unit, the bottom one is.

Basically when the models are on the table look at the firing models Line of Sight and determine of the shots are going over ot passing through gaps in the unit.

So what I'm reading here from most of the players is that you would physically get down to eye level or use a laser pointer to trace Line of Sight from your squad of 10 Space Marines to fire at your opponent's 10 Chaos Space Marines if they were shooting through another unit of Chaos Space Marines?

Let me ask a further question then- would you trace LoS to the nearest model for all your models? Or would you resolve each shot independently, checking LoS for each shooter to the nearest target? SM #5 could have clear LoS to enemy CSM #1 (the nearest model) but as soon as CSM #1 is removed as a causality, he no longer has LoS to CSM #2, and as all shots/wounds have to be made at the nearest model, does that mean SM #5 doesn't get to shoot?

Or do you just play the game with the idea that cover saves are just an abstract idea with True Line of Sight? That cover and TLoS just DO NOT WORK in this game? That you have to, according to GW Rule #2- "Make up your own rules with your opponent"?

I know how I would play it, and that this is a pretty ridiculous argument to have over a game of little toy soldiers. If my opponent wanted to try and argue about something like this, I would just reach across the table, shake his hand, and say "You win." Then I'd pick up my little toy soldiers and try to find an opponent that I could have fun playing with.

Side Note: The game was much, much more fun/easier when we had area terrain and cover, and True Line of Sight didn't exist. GW wants us to forge the narrative, and they write about a battle being very dynamic, with explosions and guys running around, ducking for cover, lobbing grenades, etc. etc and that we need to imagine our models being active, and not in the static poses they are in. So why, oh why, do we have True Line of Sight and why do we use it from our static model tracing LoS to another static model?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
The thing is, if you say yes to this... What if the model firing, or even the model being shot at, was on a tile that puts him on an elevation that's 2cm taller than the elevation everyone else is at? What if that's 2 inches instead? Does it or does it not get a cover save because it's on a different plane of elevation?

I think this is a complete maybe.

I posted two pics from a firing models point of view. the top one is not firing though gaps in the unit, the bottom one is.

Basically when the models are on the table look at the firing models Line of Sight and determine of the shots are going over ot passing through gaps in the unit.

Except that this black/white rule of thumb essentially says that "hey, I'm standing on a plank that makes me 2mm taller, I can shoot over all intervening models now as I'm elevated" because there is no way of distinctly defining what is "firing over" and "firing in between" gaps based on height distinctions. What if the model is half firing over and half firing in between?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Basically this The red arrow is the shot and the pic denotes the line of sight the model firing has.
The first pic is no cover save, the second gets a cover save.

Ah, so Second does indeed get cover, however the example is a little different and Case 3:



Technically there is no in-between

@BlackTalos

Well there are the tiny MM gaps unless we are assuming BTB