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As part of a summer project I've imposed on myself, I'm currently in the process of building and painting a Space Marine battle company (scaled down). Four tac squads, two devastator squads, two assault squads, one Captain. Tacs are running plasmaguns, combiweapons, meltabombs and are in rhinos - Devastators are running 4x LC each (10 man squads, combat squadding likely) - and two assault squads with meltabombs on the sergeants and a power weapon each. Captain's going with AA, JP, Relic Blade, meltabombs.

So, here's the question. Assault Marines vs Vanguard Veterans (with JP). A Dozer Blade's difference in points, for a universal Ld boost (vs Sergeant), +1A per model, and the ability to throw toys on anyone rather than just the sergeant. The vice, of course, is body count. Similarly equipped units would compare 10 assault marines to 8 VV, with the VV's packing more attacks.

Second question, loadouts - specifically the special weapon capabilities and power weapons. Specials y/n? I'm inclined to say no, because flamers would kill what I'm trying to charge more often than not (and rob me for a BP + CCW attack), and the pistols are very pricy (can they take grav pistols? I forget). Power weapons - sword, maul, or axe? I'm inclined to say maul or sword, personally, because their intended targets are squishy back-fielders. Sword does what sword do, but the tac squads should be killing other marines (unless it's a dev squad or some such). Maul gives a nice strength boost and against Xenos or AM would likely reap a tally.

Anywho, enough of my mulling. Thoughts, opinions, comments.

5x Man Assault - 95
2x Flamers
Pod

Drop out and flame a unit.

or

5x Man Assault - 95
2x Flamers

Counter Assault or bullying unit.

or

10x Man Vanguard - 270
3x Mauls, Melta Bombs
Jump Packs

Not very good but very fluffy for RavenGuard and very fun.

I've had more luck with Assault Marines bringing back their points more reliably than VV's, but when you're looking at a 10 man VV squad (as Feasible listed) you've got to wonder what you'd be throwing that at.

In as much as VV's get the weapon upgrades I suppose you want to decide how much you REALLY want to kill something. VV's are stupidly priced and only slightly better than a standard assault marine, but has access to those nifty special weapons...

Honestly I'd have to say try them out; run a 5 man of each how you'd field them and run a 10 man of each with how you'd kit them.

Mind, when comparing the two I'm looking at the barebones CCW + BP with a single PW as my assumed stock build. For the fluff factor of a battle company, 5 in a pod or rhino isn't an option. Gotta be 10. When you look at barebones VVs vs Assault Marines, 8 VVs is roughly 10 Marines, with the VVs packing four more attacks. Is four attacks worth the loss of two bodies, would be the question. Or I could lose the PW to pack in an equivalent number of VVs, and just tack on 2-3 Meltabombs instead of one.

I think for you the question is which slot is best used for these guys? It's less of a concern now with how army lists work now, but I would say that the assault marines are the better use as they are in a less clustered slot in fast attack.

while I love the concept of VV and think they are what assault marines *should* be (because of the 2A base), they die too easily to justify their cost. there's just too much shooting on the table that wipes MEQ off the board and you can't really afford that when you're paying that many points per model. if they were priced like assault marines and the cost of their JPs were included, my opinion would be very different of course. I wouldn't load up on the PWs regardless, though. I'd start looking at honor guard instead.

so, if you're going to build 10-man units I'd go with assault marines over VV. decide if you want them to crack infantry or tanks and assign flamers or meltaguns as appropriate (never plasma, because they aren't assault weapons). melta bombs on sergeants is optional since everyone has krak grenades, but PWs are certainly fluffy if you have the spare points. expect these units to die... possibly gloriously, but likely just horribly

Can assault marines take melta guns? I know their BA cousins can, but I didn't think SM ones could.

gah, you know... I'd have to go check and I'm at work just now. I might have them mixed up with raptors. the curse of playing SM and CSM at the same time...

According to battle scribe, they cannot. Which is a shame.

I feel like 5 man assaults squads with 2 flamers and a melta bomb are the more useful unit. While they're not particularly good assaulting other dedicated close combat units, they do have the mobility to sneak around LOS blocking terrain and ambush enemy gunlines and vehicles. And the drop pod variants are dirt cheap (if you negate the cost of the drop pod, you're basically playing 10 pts per marine on a 5 man squad).

Vanguard Veterans are just too expensive and fragile for what they do. They can sometimes overwhelm opponents with the 40 attacks that they get on charges, but they're not cost-effective for attacking other dedicated close combat units. A lot of those types of units have a mix of AP3 weapons, high initiative, high strength, and lots of attacks, and so will cleave a bloody path through your vets before they get to strike. You can alleviate some of their durability problems by equipping some of them with storm shields, but then you reduce the number of attacks they get (problematic since they rely on volume of attacks to get through their enemy's armor saves). If they got a discount on power weapons, I would like them a lot more... but if you kit them all out with good weapons, they end up costing as much as hammernators (who, while they don't have the maneuverability, hit so much harder and are so much more durable).

As for VV loadouts... I've had luck running them as 5 man squads, with three dudes in the front packing storm shields + lightning claw + bolt pistol, and two dudes in the back packing bolt pistols + power axes. I also think it's worth adding a chaplain to the unit. If you expand the unit out to 10 models, then it might be better to run 3 or 4 storm shield dudes at the front (with no extra equipment), then rear-load the unit with 5 or 6 power axes. The SS dudes can soak up the initial attacks from whatever your fighting, and you'll get to follow up with 20 S5 AP2 attacks - not a lot can survive that.

Honestly, if you really want to take assaults for fluff related reasons, that's fine but fielding them you'll want to put them in a pod (or not, I guess). VV are better than their non-veteran brothers, what with all the gear they have access to and such (even if you're running a barebones squad).

And you said it, you're getting double the attacks when you compare the two 10 mans, so if you really want a jump pack unit and can shell out the points run VV's. If you're looking to make it cheaper, assaults in a drop pod.

I don't intend to smash either the assault marines or VVs into other dedicated CC units. That's what the tactical squads are their for. Age old adage - shoot the stabby, stab the shooty. What either unit hits, I need them to be able to go through 20-30 guardsmen, termagants, a 10 man tac squad, Dire Avengers, etc. They're not trying to outfight witches, honor guard, striking scorpions, daemonettes, etc. SM are a generally weak assault army. What I'm looking for, other than filling a fluff role, is a unit that can capitalize off a gap. Force a reaction or take an opportunity when one arises.

granted, but assault marines are crappy CC units even when fighting non-CC stuff. a full strength 10-man unit is getting, at best, 31 attacks on the charge (assuming no specials). some of those are going to miss and some of those are going to fail to wound. someone else can do the math, but you're not going to chew through a 30 man blob like it was wet paper in 2 rounds of combat. gods help you if you smash into something with a decent armor save. VV start to look better here, with their +1A and higher Ld, but that cost... oh, that cost :(

of course, if you're just looking to tar pit said 30 man blob... then yeah, that might be viable.

 varl wrote:
granted, but assault marines are crappy CC units even when fighting non-CC stuff. a full strength 10-man unit is getting, at best, 31 attacks on the charge (assuming no specials). some of those are going to miss and some of those are going to fail to wound. someone else can do the math, but you're not going to chew through a 30 man blob like it was wet paper in 2 rounds of combat. gods help you if you smash into something with a decent armor save. VV start to look better here, with their +1A and higher Ld, but that cost... oh, that cost :(

of course, if you're just looking to tar pit said 30 man blob... then yeah, that might be viable.

Well, with the exception of fearless mobs, I don't need to tear through 30. Just enough to force failed leadership. Or, as you said, tarpit a unit with scary shooting.

Made an account just to post here!

I always see VV compared to Hammernators. The fact is nobody ever factors in the must have land raider or storm raven to help Hammernators do their job. that's 450 points before hammers and shields or MM on the raider. 485 in the end.

I've had a lot of success running a VV squad at 10 vets with jump packs. 4 Shields, 2 Axes, 1 duel claws, 9 meltabombs, and sarge w/ Relic blade and storm shield.

That's 400 points even! with enough shields and guys to tank wounds. MBs for overwhelming vehicles/monsters, and a couple axes for AP 2, and enough attacks and AP 3 to mulch anything non TEQ.

It has served me well.

I think you will find out fast that assault marines die very fast and don't get much done . i don't have one assault element in my marines as i use shoting to get the job done assault is for other armys marines are to weak at it

I run my assault marines with flamers. I figure if I burn everything close so I miss the charge, that’s OK. I’m normally able to drop them an inch or two away from the squad before shooting anyway, so I need to fry a LOT of guys for it to matter. I also have the UM assault doctrine to help if I need it.

What chapter tactics you planning on using?

From a fluff perspective, stick with the assault marines. VV are 1st company, not part of a battle company. Also remember that assault marines will often pilot speeders and ride bikes. You could field a 6 man unit of AM and a pair of speeders to field a full 10 man squad.

On a semi-related note, no company is complete without its chaplain and a few dreads. I’d also mix up your squads a little. Hyper-specialization is for xenos.

The chapter tactics will be imperial fist based, either supplement or main book version. So the cannon devs are pretty much a must to capitalize on tank hunters. I know about the speeder / bike part. I'm avoiding bikes just because I hate putting them together and painting them, but speeders may work. Wonder how many typhoons I could fit in. List structure runs a 1500 and 1750 version, with an eventual 2000 upscale that will include the dreadnoughts and chaplain.

having built both bikes and speeders recently, I'll take building bikes any day...

 varl wrote:
having built both bikes and speeders recently, I'll take building bikes any day...

But it is like asking what knee you want to be shot in. Whatever you answer, it’s going to hurt.

I recently put together a LSS, but haven’t painted it yet. It was OK. Last normal speeder I assembled was back in 3rd, and recall that being not the most fun thing.

I also put together a half dozen bikes recently. They got old quick. I think putting together a pair of attack bikes might not be to bad, but getting the 5 models for a troop pick just dragged on forever.

yeah, very true. neither one of them are my favorite things to work on. I have parts for 2 speeders sitting in a box that I just don't have the heart to start in on...

I remember my speeder being a royal pain in the ass due to warped panels and such. lots of filing, clamping and gluing. imagine my (pleasant) surprise when my rhinos turned out to be easier to build :p

the bikes were tedious to get cleaned up, what with all the bad mold lines and such, but I don't recall assembly being any worse then a regular marine squad. that said, I'd cry if I had to build 20 of them...