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Up until now I've been running a Soul Grinder in my lists as a Daemon of Nurgle to gain Shrouded, taking Phlegm Bombardment and sticking them in a ruin and using them as a backfield Heavy Support unit. I'm therefore not getting much use out of the Iron Claw which makes me wonder whether I should be using the Grinder differently.

I've seen mention of making them Slaanesh or Tzeentch and deep striking them in and I'm wondering in what situations playing them more aggressively like this would be a more effective option. Part of my reasons for parking them at the backfield is to try and protect their rear but I suppose with the new vehicle damage in 7th they will be a bit tougher especially with Daemonic Resilience. They are pretty big models and I presume to DS them effectively it's best to make use of an icon if possible, especially if there's a lot of terrain. And if going the DS route is it better to take multiple Grinders?

Also which optional weapon to take? I can see Baleful Torrent being of use against certain armies but Warp Gaze just sounds a bit risky with their not so great BS. I also can't see taking the Warpsword as ever being worth it.

I use the same set up, but I've played about with the implementation.

Like you, I decided it was worth more than just as an artillery piece, so try advancing it behind a screen of Nurglings (shooting through an intervening unit is a cover save regardless) or deep striking them, a couple of rounds of shooting followed up with a charge can help you feel like they're doing more in the game, and with AV13, 5++ and a better than normal WS for a vehicle, there are many units it can utterly mash, and few who would actively seek to engage it.

 azreal13 wrote:
shooting through an intervening unit is a cover save regardless

Doesn't apply to vehicles. Vehicles always have to be 25% obscured to gain cover. Says so in the vehicle rules

Grinders definitely work better when used aggressively as a walker and not just as artillery (especialy with DoN its not cheap). I always run 3 and they can real force your opponant in to bad positions as they struggle to deal with all 3 grinders.

Soul grinders are one of the few good assault walkers in the game, and it always boggles my mind when people just sit them behind cover with phlegm like a lackluster leman russ.

They have good armour, lots of hullpoints, a decent number of attacks, without sacrificing firepower (which they also have a proper ammount of), and can be made extremely fast, or extremely durable, and are pretty cheap to boot.

I like using the bale-flamer, and deepstriking off of a daemon icon.

i can't get behind the baleflamer myself, its decent but i hate the ap4. i guess i was spoiled with the heldrakes ap3.

i run dok with phlegm, so i can still run if needed and sweep in assault. its cheap as well.

They're dirt cheap in terms of Walkers with survivability and potential dmg output. I run Nurgle Grinders myself, with Plague Drones with banners and 2 squads of Plague Bearers also with Banners in reserves.

Usually my tactics are to utilize the Plague Drones and their Banner to Deep Strike my first group of Plague Bearers and their Banner forward since they won't scatter so long as you place them within 12", repeat with second Squad, then Deep Strike your Soul Grinders of Nurgle, Torrent them for the added 12" range and watch things disappear. Its usually nice being able to cover 48" of ground to drop your Soul Grinders just THAT MUCH closer to things you can smash. And the Torrent helps with that, essentially meaning you've covered 60" of board space to hurt your opponent.

i like that strategy, i really like the hardiness of the don models, buy they're just so slow. i think it'll be more of a detriment in 7th. if only nurgle heralds could ride on the giant house flies.

have you ever had problems with the flamer only being ap4?

my local meta has alot of necrons (good here) and marines (bad here) that's why i run phlegm, it kills both. we also have a new tau player that likes his crisis suits. they hate the hock-n-spit cannon! lol

do you use any fortifications to manipulate your reserves in sooner?

Honestly, I havent ever had a problem running the Torrent. Usually my logic goes like this. The torrent is ignoring what ever cover saves the models I'm firing at usually have (Usually its a 4+ hiding behind a D-Line or inside ruins) and anything it's hitting is getting wounded on 2+ anyways (Usually) And most of the things I aim at tend to be weenie Fire Warriors anyways So, the main point I tend to see is if it's MEQ armor hiding in the Ruins or behind the D-Line they just dont get their cover saves against the Torrent. If they are 4+ they simply go away. MEQ sure tend to survive but they also take a good amount of Casualties.

Once the Grinders are on the board they tend to become fire targets anyways, which leaves the rest of my army alone for the most part to move in and tie up + grind everything down with their 4+ poisons / Glances on 6s.

As for fortifications, I run a standard D-Line with Coms and hide something behind it (Usually some Tzeentch Heralds and Pink Horrors just so I have 1/2 my army on the board as per the rules needed in order to Deep Strike the other half up the board) They tend to hide out, going to ground when needed for their 2+ rerollable. As for positioning I tend to huddle them up within the reaches of my D-Line so nothing can Drop in unexpectedly, It's risky because of Barrage, but in that case you're going to be losing things anyways. Once you're front lines get in, they HAVE to deal with it, otherwise everything either dies outright or gets tied up until the last turn. Taking a Portaglyph also helps when you spawn Daemonettes and run them towards objectives (if any)

DS rules changed in 7th. It no longer says you have to have half of your army on the field for reserves. You could drop some of that backfield behind the Line and figure a way to get 2 grinders DS-ing.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
shooting through an intervening unit is a cover save regardless

Doesn't apply to vehicles. Vehicles always have to be 25% obscured to gain cover. Says so in the vehicle rules

Grinders definitely work better when used aggressively as a walker and not just as artillery (especialy with DoN its not cheap). I always run 3 and they can real force your opponant in to bad positions as they struggle to deal with all 3 grinders.

Huh. You're right. Somewhere I knew that (hence Nurglings, they're much bulkier than PBs or similar) but had completely forgotten.

I was a little hesitant on the AP4 on the baleflamer, but the S6 makes up for it. You just cause so many wounds, sure you don't instagib entire units, but you soften them up before you assault them with 5 S10 attacks.

It's the same basic theory that makes the Waveserpent such a nightmare, it isn't the fact it ignores your armour, it's the removal of one category of save altogether, and forcing many armour saves, some of which inevitably fail, regardless of how good they are.

I used some Flamers against DE on Monday on he same principle, a unit of 3 scored 30+ hits on a Wyche unit with Archon that had got bunched up as a result of an assault into cover. 75pts annihilated more than 3x that in one shooting phase.

Wound spam is very, very effective.

So is it better to go Slaanesh or Tzeentch for deep striking Grinders? I'm thinking Tzeentch might be a better option if you're likely to be facing a lot of lascannons or something. Otherwise going Slaanesh for Fleet might be better?

 McGibs wrote:
Soul grinders are one of the few good assault walkers in the game, and it always boggles my mind when people just sit them behind cover with phlegm like a lackluster leman russ.

They have good armour, lots of hullpoints, a decent number of attacks, without sacrificing firepower (which they also have a proper ammount of), and can be made extremely fast, or extremely durable, and are pretty cheap to boot.

I like using the bale-flamer, and deepstriking off of a daemon icon.

this is a huge point, these things just beg to be taken into assault. Give them daemon of slaanesh and you have a fast moving unit. Run multiple grinders coupled with other decent threats and you'll more than likely see them to their target.

I dunno having a Tzeentch Soul Grndr with a 4++ with a buff from Cursed earth and rerolling from Tzeentch is pretty sweet. I like them as assault vehicles as well.

I often run 3 grinders, 2 slaanesh torrent grinders, and a khorne grinder with a torrent.

The slaanesh grinders push forward whilst the khorne grinder wanders into midfield whilst firing some pie plates.

I choose Khorne over nurgle as it is cheaper, and with 3 grinders on the field the opposition will simply target the other 2.

Interestingly enough, it seems Grinders are making a resurgence because of the new vehicle damage charts?

 Enigwolf wrote:
Interestingly enough, it seems Grinders are making a resurgence because of the new vehicle damage charts?

They never left to be honest. I ran grinders all through 6th when not using a FMC spam list.

7th edition has buffed them through the damage table and allowing them to score, and nerfed some of their major competition (monstrous creatures). So they are better now, but they were always good.

Honestly the biggest buff to them these days is the change to smash. Most mcs used to be able to beat them down in cc. This is no longer the case.

Yeah I mean with Hammer of Wrath and getting the new rules for Walkers etc.. it's pretty great. It kind of sucks that it's only WS3 , but that's not to terrible.

Remember your fear tests!

Ok, Marines are immune, but there's plenty that aren't, and WS3 is awesome when your opponent is WS1....

i ALWAYS forget fear.... makes me sooooo mad! i usually remember on my way home.

 zachwho wrote:
i ALWAYS forget fear.... makes me sooooo mad! i usually remember on my way home.

It is difficult when half the armies in the game ignore it.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I often run 3 grinders, 2 slaanesh torrent grinders, and a khorne grinder with a torrent.

The slaanesh grinders push forward whilst the khorne grinder wanders into midfield whilst firing some pie plates.

I choose Khorne over nurgle as it is cheaper, and with 3 grinders on the field the opposition will simply target the other 2.

If you're going to run khorne, why not spend 5 more pts and get a useful rule from tzeentch?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I often run 3 grinders, 2 slaanesh torrent grinders, and a khorne grinder with a torrent.

The slaanesh grinders push forward whilst the khorne grinder wanders into midfield whilst firing some pie plates.

I choose Khorne over nurgle as it is cheaper, and with 3 grinders on the field the opposition will simply target the other 2.

If you're going to run khorne, why not spend 5 more pts and get a useful rule from tzeentch?

Daemon of Tzeentch is great if the model that has it has a 2+/3+ save, as it greatly increases their survivability. On a model with a 5+ save however, it will only increase their durability a fraction.

A 5+ save gives you a 33% chance to block any wounds/damage, daemon of tzeentch with a 5+ save will give you a 38.3% chance.

You are paying 5 points for an increase of 5% protection. It might sometimes work, but normally I just go with the cheaper option. The slaanesh grinders normally take more fire anyway, as they are the ones in the opponents face.

If you feel the protection is worth the points then by all means go for it.

An idea which was suggested to me back along, which I've yet to try on table, because SG#2 is still awaiting glue, but using a pair, one with Nurgle and Phlegm, one with Slaanesh and Torrent.

The idea being the fast, close range equipped Slaanesh Grinder advances across the table, while the slower, longer ranged, Shrouded advances behind it, benefitting from the cover save the front one can easily provide.

That's a combination with a little bit of everything, offensively speaking, and the durability that SGs now have means it has to be a compelling option for the points.

 azreal13 wrote:
An idea which was suggested to me back along, which I've yet to try on table, because SG#2 is still awaiting glue, but using a pair, one with Nurgle and Phlegm, one with Slaanesh and Torrent.

The idea being the fast, close range equipped Slaanesh Grinder advances across the table, while the slower, longer ranged, Shrouded advances behind it, benefitting from the cover save the front one can easily provide.

That's a combination with a little bit of everything, offensively speaking, and the durability that SGs now have means it has to be a compelling option for the points.

I think that this would work best against a gunline where the AT firepower is fairly immobile, think of devastator squads for example. Against opponents with fast moving anti tank weapons however, they will be easily able to move to see around the slaanesh grinder, as it will pull away from the nurgle grinder after a turn or 2 of running.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I often run 3 grinders, 2 slaanesh torrent grinders, and a khorne grinder with a torrent.

The slaanesh grinders push forward whilst the khorne grinder wanders into midfield whilst firing some pie plates.

I choose Khorne over nurgle as it is cheaper, and with 3 grinders on the field the opposition will simply target the other 2.

If you're going to run khorne, why not spend 5 more pts and get a useful rule from tzeentch?

Daemon of Tzeentch is great if the model that has it has a 2+/3+ save, as it greatly increases their survivability. On a model with a 5+ save however, it will only increase their durability a fraction.

A 5+ save gives you a 33% chance to block any wounds/damage, daemon of tzeentch with a 5+ save will give you a 38.3% chance.

You are paying 5 points for an increase of 5% protection. It might sometimes work, but normally I just go with the cheaper option. The slaanesh grinders normally take more fire anyway, as they are the ones in the opponents face.

If you feel the protection is worth the points then by all means go for it.

Yes but now it's incredibly easy to pretty much get a +1 to that save with Cursed Earth or getting invisibility.

Hollismason wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
I often run 3 grinders, 2 slaanesh torrent grinders, and a khorne grinder with a torrent.

The slaanesh grinders push forward whilst the khorne grinder wanders into midfield whilst firing some pie plates.

I choose Khorne over nurgle as it is cheaper, and with 3 grinders on the field the opposition will simply target the other 2.

If you're going to run khorne, why not spend 5 more pts and get a useful rule from tzeentch?

Daemon of Tzeentch is great if the model that has it has a 2+/3+ save, as it greatly increases their survivability. On a model with a 5+ save however, it will only increase their durability a fraction.

A 5+ save gives you a 33% chance to block any wounds/damage, daemon of tzeentch with a 5+ save will give you a 38.3% chance.

You are paying 5 points for an increase of 5% protection. It might sometimes work, but normally I just go with the cheaper option. The slaanesh grinders normally take more fire anyway, as they are the ones in the opponents face.

If you feel the protection is worth the points then by all means go for it.

Yes but now it's incredibly easy to pretty much get a +1 to that save with Cursed Earth or getting invisibility.

Invisibility doesn't change anything with regards to daemon on tzeentch. Cursed earth and grimoire do of course, and yes, if you are planning to do this then daemon of tzeentch is fine.
However, if I am running 3 grinders, then the phlegm grinder is usually last to be targeted, due to the slaanesh ones pressuring their lines. Tzeentch upgrade is ok, but I will only take it if I have 5 points to spare.

If you guys were playing CSM with CD allies, what Soul Grinder would be a good complement to Dinobots?