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Hi i was wondering after a game with a friend i got my c'tan in assault against his assault squad/ with joined warlord and challenged his warlord, i started by doing the HoW b4 the challenge and the made the time'arrow on his warlord but he passed the initiative test and the combat resolved after that

Question #1 should i had made the HoW on his warlord as i issued a challenge?

Then for question # 2 on the second round of combat his warlord got removed from play by time's arrow, does my 4 attack wich have not been made yet resolve on the rest of the unit? Or does it only work after wounds have been added to the wound pool.

Thx in advance for the info

1) HoW is an attack made at i10 so it happens during a challenge and would hit the opposing warlord
2) Time Arrow says its done before combat so you haven't even gotten a chance to swing yet

But what i want to know is if the opposing character gets removed by time's arrow do i get to swing at the rest of the squad?

Thewhite wrote:
But what i want to know is if the opposing character gets removed by time's arrow do i get to swing at the rest of the squad?

why wouldn't you? you aren't in a challenge anymore

 CrownAxe wrote:
1) HoW is an attack made at i10 so it happens during a challenge and would hit the opposing warlord
2) Time Arrow says its done before combat so you haven't even gotten a chance to swing yet

1) is not entirely correct, always. Remember in a challenge you are still in btb with all models as normal, not just the challenger now. So if the ctan made it to base with a normal member of the unit, then challenged, it is entirely possible to be in base with two models. You then have to randomly allocate the how.
2) as noted you do get to fight, as long as you are in base contact with other model(s) after your pile in step.

Another question about challenge, if i give my c'tan gaze of death does the effect still hit the rest of the unit even if im in challenge?

Crown Axe:
The challenge is ongoing to the end of the Turn, even if an opponent is slain.
However, the remaining challenger is very likely to be within Base to Base contact with the enemy, or 2 inches of a Model which is, and therefore generates a Wound Pool that has to be allocated to the remaining Unit.

Even before any to hit has been made?

Why would that matter?
Challenges are always issued at the very start of the Fight Sub-Phase, accepted or rejected before blows are struck, so the removal of a Model after this point in the timeline would not prevent the Challenge from being considered 'on-going.' Even if it was creating a timing issue by also triggering at the very start of the Fight Sub-Phase the challenge is also being issued on, to be truthful I have not looked into the Rule interaction all that closely, we are informed how to handle such matters. It would be entirely up to the player whom's turn it is to decide which to resolve first, the Arrow or issuing the Challenge, and should they issue the challenge first then it is hard to state it is not on-going when the Arrow is resolved.

A situation in terms of "HoW kills a challenger - can I swing" came up against a Daemons player a few weeks back. Here's the thread - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598738.page


Ultimately
- challenges last until the end of the turn.
- Challengers nor models moved to put challengers into base to base cannot pile in.
- You cannot swing if you are not in base contact
- There are no rules that state that outside forces cannot pile in to get into base contact with the lone challenger and swing to hit/wound him or her.

So if Time's Arrow defeats your opponent in a challenge and the C'Tan's I4 would swing prior to the enemy's outside forces, the C'Tan can't swing as it is not in base contact with any enemy models and cannot pile in (presuming it charged).


I've submitted the situation and ~5 questions concerning such to the FAQ email address. Hopefully it'll be clarified in a future FAQ.

As above, only if the ctan charged and contacted the other member of the challenge. This isn't alwayss the case

Maybe I am over-looking it, and given the lack of reliable page numbers a Rule quote would be appreciated, but where does it state that Models within a Challenge ignore the 2/6 Inch Rule within the 'Determine Whom Can Fight' section of the Rulebook?

JinxDragon wrote:
Maybe I am over-looking it, and given the lack of reliable page numbers a Rule quote would be appreciated, but where does it state that Models within a Challenge ignore the 2/6 Inch Rule within the 'Determine Whom Can Fight' section of the Rulebook?

The 2" rule (6" vertical) is not removed from challengers any more like it was in 6th. It still applies to challengers by the fact that there is not a rule stating they don't get it.

There is a rule in the challenges section though that states that models engaged in a challenge, nor the people that move to make room for challengers (so the grunt that is swapped for the character) cannot pile in.

iBook Page 539 - Fighting a Challenge; Paragraph 1 Last Sentence

Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached.

Where this applies is that if the C'Tan charges a tactical marine squad with sergeant. Moving closest to closest, a lone model (the C'Tan) will only ever charge into base contact with a single model due to the round bases. Now, if that's a normal marine and the C'Tan issues a challenge, that marine is swapped with the Sergeant. At initiative steps, all 3 (C'Tan, Sergeant, and swapped marine) cannot make a pile in move.

Now, with that scenario, we have Time's Arrow which goes off before blows are struck (same time as challenges). If the challenge is declared first, accepted the C'Tan is only in base contact with the Sergeant and thus is the target for Time's Arrow. If hes succumbs to Time's Arrow, the C'Tan is left without being in base with any models for when he swings until the rest of the marines pile in. So HoW is lost (since there's no one in base contact at I10) and, in this scenario, everyone swings since Marines are I4 like the C'Tan.

Should the above scenario play out with slower models (say orks), the C'Tan would do nothing at I4 and then the ork would pile in at I3 and I2 depending on the model and swing based on the 2" of a model in base contact.

Some have argued that outside forces cannot roll to hit challengers (since challenges remain until the end of the current assault phase); however, again, there is nothing stating that challengers are only allowed to hit themselves and that outside forces in base contact with challengers cannot roll to hit as normal. The only restriction is that challengers roll to hit against each other (so no majority characteristics) and must allocate wounds onto each other first.

So the moral of the story - don't use Time's Arrow in a challenge unless the outside forces are faster than you or they are already in base contact with you.

Fair enough,
I was overlooking the context of the posts, when isolated to just the C'Tan then the 2/4 Inch Rule is irrelevant as no other Models exist in the Unit.

So i should get my c'tan in base to base with the character and do time's arrow before trying to challenge

But with all i have read here it almost seems like a challenge isnt between 2 character anymore ...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just read the outside force paragraph of the new rulebook and well i get to think that it has become useless to challenge with a lone character...

Not really - without the challenge you may not have been able to hit your ideal target at all, for example they were far away from where you ctan was forced to make base contact. It can also make your opponent decide to sacrifice a character for dire to protect a more important character that that still want to fight in the combat. It just means that lone chars aren't either frustrated by huge squads with five sarges in them, or can avoid being hit by thirty guys for a turn, etc.

Well the way i understand it, it can help me get my main target in base to base but everyone else in the unit will still hit me since im alone