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Been having success with this list.

1850 Pts - Codex: Eldar Roster


1 Autarch - TL Shuriken Catapults; Shuriken Pistol; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades; Forceshield; Fusion Gun; Laser Lance; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Fire Dragons - Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is an alternate list depending on your style of play that works pretty much the same way.

1850 Pts - Codex: Eldar Roster


1 Farseer - TL Shuriken Catapults; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; Ghosthelm; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Fire Dragons - Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; TL Shuriken Catapults; Holo Fields

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons

It looks like every other eldar TAC list on this forum since 6th ed eldar came out... Perhaps search it.

Very strong list, with fthe way psychic powers work in this edition one ml3 psyker isnt going to cut it. So i dont recommend the farseer. Particularly since the units you have chosen are either only there for late obj grabbing(bikes) or already self sufficient to perform their role (anything in a eave serpent). Onlything i would suggest is if you are using the jetbikes.for.late objective grabs (most common use) keep the squads small, saves you points and easier to hide. Most armies will struggle against this list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgive grammar mistakes am writing from my phone.

 Arbiter wrote:
It looks like every other eldar TAC list on this forum since 6th ed eldar came out... Perhaps search it.

Glad you took the time to answer it . Must have been a slow day for you .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

buttman wrote:
Very strong list, with fthe way psychic powers work in this edition one ml3 psyker isnt going to cut it. So i dont recommend the farseer. Particularly since the units you have chosen are either only there for late obj grabbing(bikes) or already self sufficient to perform their role (anything in a eave serpent). Onlything i would suggest is if you are using the jetbikes.for.late objective grabs (most common use) keep the squads small, saves you points and easier to hide. Most armies will struggle against this list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Forgive grammar mistakes am writing from my phone.

Thank you for the feedback , what do you think of dropping fire dragons and going triple wraith knight ?

 mk2 wrote:
Been having success with this list.

1850 Pts - Codex: Eldar Roster


1 Autarch - TL Shuriken Catapults; Shuriken Pistol; Haywire Grenades; Plasma Grenades; Forceshield; Fusion Gun; Laser Lance; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Fire Dragons - Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is an alternate list depending on your style of play that works pretty much the same way.

1850 Pts - Codex: Eldar Roster


1 Farseer - TL Shuriken Catapults; Rune Armour; Shuriken Pistol; Witchblade; Ghosthelm; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Windrider Jetbike Squad - TL Shuriken Catapults; Eldar Jetbike

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Dire Avengers - Avenger Shuriken Catapult; Plasma Grenades
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; Shuriken Cannon; Holo Fields

5 Fire Dragons - Fusion Gun
Wave Serpent - TL Scatter Lasers; TL Shuriken Catapults; Holo Fields

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons

1 Wraithknight - Heavy Wraithcannons

If you're going to post tournament lists, spamming wave serpants and wraithknights, then why not look at previous lists instead of wasting forum space with this. This looks like every other wave serpant list I have seen. Nothing new here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbiter wrote:
It looks like every other eldar TAC list on this forum since 6th ed eldar came out... Perhaps search it.

Amen. Sorry for the redundancy.

One Wraithknight is easy to handle. Two is tough. Three is a nightmare.

Coldsteel wrote:
One Wraithknight is easy to handle. Two is tough. Three is a nightmare.

Unless you're Dark Eldar, Eldar, Tyranids that spam poison units or SM with grav bikers or grav cents. 3 Wraithknights make your list unbalanced and vulnerable to certain builds. I always believe a more balanced approach is what wins games on a regular basis.

This is the same as every other Serpent Spam list out there.

I would do the second list. And yes everyone, we all know that this is like every other list, but no need to comment on that, if you have something to post, make it relevant to helping out with the list, not because Eldar are OP as Feth. I like your second list more. Something I am trying out is Eldar with Tau allies. I take a small Farisght Bomb with a ton of meltas and a buffsuit, and then I take an AA Riptide and some Kroot. The Eldar Primary is 4 DA + WS Squads, and then 2 Jetbike squads. Hq, minimal Farsser on Bike. The way I run it is for a devastating force in your opponents back field to deal with, but this is a little more based of tactics, playing the objectives.

Now to address the psychic potency. What powers would you be going for, and what would you be using them on? IMO this then dictates a lot of how you want your list to run. Then you can take units that can benefit from what you are casting and become a real problem for your opponent. I hope that this has helped a little.


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Coldsteel wrote:
One Wraithknight is easy to handle. Two is tough. Three is a nightmare.

I see that you are new to dakka. A new player too? 3 Is not a nightmare, because the list is unbalanced then. That was said too. Two is not fun to deal with, but 3 lets you play around a couple of them and just take out the rest of their army due to the fact that its going to be weaker as you have that 3rd WK burning a hole in your points limit.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I would do the second list. And yes everyone, we all know that this is like every other list, but no need to comment on that, if you have something to post, make it relevant to helping out with the list, not because Eldar are OP as Feth.

I think it's important to point out the absurdity of the rules, the tournament scene, and the players that make it absurd. The above lists are just examples of why competitive play in 40k is really dead. Yeah, you can tell me it isn't, because lots of people go. In actuality, the only people that go are the ones lucky enough to have either had Eldar, Daemons (in the 6th, at least), or SM. A lot of these guys aren't really all that "good" anyway, and that is why they feel compelled to find some way of bending the rules as far as possible. Give them a substandard army and have them play someone who has been playing a substandard army for years, and they will get their ass handed to them. I find it rewarding to point out the absurdity, and what I would almost refer as a conscious disregard to your fellow gamers. If you want to spam the most overly powered units, units that really have no business being that overly powered (transports that only take 14% of their pens? That can shoot their shields? Everything is twinlinked? Fast? AV 12?) This is why most people avoid the tournament scene, because they will face one of two or three lists. The only way to compete is bring one of those lists. It's stupid. It makes no sense. Enjoy playing against other people spamming the same crap as you. I am going to laugh at people like you when the nerf bat swings. There will be no sympathy, none at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add though, that my laughing probably won't be for very long. Most of the people spamming crap like this, once the nerf bat comes, will jump ship upon realizing they can't win unless they spam OP stuff. We'll all have a 6 month window until these guys buy a new army, where only the best units are spammed or some weird combination is abused (2++ reroll, lol?).

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I would do the second list. And yes everyone, we all know that this is like every other list, but no need to comment on that, if you have something to post, make it relevant to helping out with the list, not because Eldar are OP as Feth.

I think it's important to point out the absurdity of the rules, the tournament scene, and the players that make it absurd. The above lists are just examples of why competitive play in 40k is really dead. Yeah, you can tell me it isn't, because lots of people go. In actuality, the only people that go are the ones lucky enough to have either had Eldar, Daemons (in the 6th, at least), or SM. A lot of these guys aren't really all that "good" anyway, and that is why they feel compelled to find some way of bending the rules as far as possible. Give them a substandard army and have them play someone who has been playing a substandard army for years, and they will get their ass handed to them. I find it rewarding to point out the absurdity, and what I would almost refer as a conscious disregard to your fellow gamers. If you want to spam the most overly powered units, units that really have no business being that overly powered (transports that only take 14% of their pens? That can shoot their shields? Everything is twinlinked? Fast? AV 12?) This is why most people avoid the tournament scene, because they will face one of two or three lists. The only way to compete is bring one of those lists. It's stupid. It makes no sense. Enjoy playing against other people spamming the same crap as you. I am going to laugh at people like you when the nerf bat swings. There will be no sympathy, none at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add though, that my laughing probably won't be for very long. Most of the people spamming crap like this, once the nerf bat comes, will jump ship upon realizing they can't win unless they spam OP stuff. We'll all have a 6 month window until these guys buy a new army, where only the best units are spammed or some weird combination is abused (2++ reroll, lol?).

Wow, that was an absolute pile of crap to read. Attacking other players for enjoying the game differently than you is unacceptable. Please be much more respectfully stop posting.


Firstly, the tournament scene has always followed the strong lists. Anyone remember GK in 5th? It happens, the Meta changes. You don't have to play tournaments, nor do you need to propagate your bias and disagreement.

Secondly, not all tournaments are filled with absolutely cut throat lists. Many local tournaments are much more diverse that state. Makes me think you have a very limited perspective, unfair bias, or have no idea what you are actually talking about. One or two or three lists, absolute crap. Not even at competitive GTs is the field as limited as you think, nor has it ever been. Playing and choosing strong lists for tournament play has nothing to do with individual ability. Fact is, good players, even with outdated armies, still win more than bad players fielding a flavor of the month. I know good players that beat everyone with bad armies, and just beat them better with good ones.

Lastly, if you don't like the tournament scene, fine, don't play in tournaments. You have no right to attack those that enjoy it, nor do you have the right to insult them by saying they are bad players that need net lists to win. People have a right to enjoy the game differently. Tournaments are not as bad as you make it sound. Your play style is not superior to others.

You are a cancerous person with a venomous attitude and everyone in this thread actually discussing a tournament build would be thrilled if you stopped posting as you aren't contributing anything helpful.



OP, both are strong Serpent Spam Wraightknight lists. Actually, very similar to a video Batrep I watched the other day. It got torn up and basically tabled by a CenturionStar. Grav is nasty, rips up Wraithknights and even Serpents with ease. The more knights you take, the more unbalanced the list becomes, two is a good level, but three is pushing it and overall becomes a weaker list. Necron Tesla Spam and Wraithwing are both pretty strong counters. Tesla destructors can rip up Wave Serpents and hurt Knights if needed and Wraiths and Dlords can be brutal to Knights. CCB Lords aren't as good, but can still be effective. With a 31% chance of getting the Infiltrate Warlord Trait Grav can be brutal. A good Grav SM army can drop both Knights T1 before you even go.

Wave Serpents got better with Objective Secured, but overall with the Jink changes their Damage Output can be lower and ndepending on mission you may need them closer to the enemy.

The new Orks, although untested will probably me a Mid Tier army, have a lot of tools to hurt this kind of lists. Boyz with PKs can Tarpit and Kill Knights, Boyz can also take out Serpents in assault and back you into the corner. Being a brand new Dex, expect to see them. Your entire army can kill ~40 Boyz in one turn without KFF 5++, FNP, Transports, Tanking, or Ard Boyz etc. With Ere We Go and Waaagh they are quick enough to get into assault now and can box in a Serpent Spam Army. Scouting BattleWagons could be bad. Even a MA Warboss with Da Lukky Stik can basically walk across the table towards you and keep an entire Mob Safe.

It's a very strong list, but IMO may not play as strong in 7th depending on Mission. If you run the Farseer list, I'd consider finding enough Pts to run a Warlock in each Jetbikes Squad, 2+ Jink is powerful and will help keep you Farseer alive and casting. You also could consider dropping the Fire a Dragons for another BikeSeer and the warlocks. Gives you more options for powers and two sturdy 2+ Cover units to move around and buff. The FireDragons are terribly needed with two WraithKnights, although if LoW is allowed in the tournament, aid keep them.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I would do the second list. And yes everyone, we all know that this is like every other list, but no need to comment on that, if you have something to post, make it relevant to helping out with the list, not because Eldar are OP as Feth.

I think it's important to point out the absurdity of the rules, the tournament scene, and the players that make it absurd. The above lists are just examples of why competitive play in 40k is really dead. Yeah, you can tell me it isn't, because lots of people go. In actuality, the only people that go are the ones lucky enough to have either had Eldar, Daemons (in the 6th, at least), or SM. A lot of these guys aren't really all that "good" anyway, and that is why they feel compelled to find some way of bending the rules as far as possible. Give them a substandard army and have them play someone who has been playing a substandard army for years, and they will get their ass handed to them. I find it rewarding to point out the absurdity, and what I would almost refer as a conscious disregard to your fellow gamers. If you want to spam the most overly powered units, units that really have no business being that overly powered (transports that only take 14% of their pens? That can shoot their shields? Everything is twinlinked? Fast? AV 12?) This is why most people avoid the tournament scene, because they will face one of two or three lists. The only way to compete is bring one of those lists. It's stupid. It makes no sense. Enjoy playing against other people spamming the same crap as you. I am going to laugh at people like you when the nerf bat swings. There will be no sympathy, none at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add though, that my laughing probably won't be for very long. Most of the people spamming crap like this, once the nerf bat comes, will jump ship upon realizing they can't win unless they spam OP stuff. We'll all have a 6 month window until these guys buy a new army, where only the best units are spammed or some weird combination is abused (2++ reroll, lol?).

Please take these types of complaints elseware. Posting stuff like this in no way answers the OP's questions. If you dont like competitive play, thats fine, but please respect the fact that others may have different opinions.

@OP
I like the first list a bit better. A single Farseer is going to get shut down pretty hard against Psyker heavy armies. I would also just stick to 2 Wraithkinghts for the reasons stated above. I have never tried 5 man Windrider units. I usualy run 3 bare, or 6 with 2 Cannons, but if that seems to be working for you, roll with it.

Mk2 to your question,
i think another wraithknight is probably not needed. 3 are very difficult to deal with however if you come up against a hard counter you will have more than a third of your army vulnerable..
also removing the dragons removes another wave serpent so thats something to consider.. if the goal is as powerful as possible than 3 wk, lots of davu wave serpents and a cheap hq is the best way to go.
Psykers have to be taken en masse or they get shutdown, your hq to be honest shouldnt be doing much apart from keeping his head down. The autarch is good because he is cheap and gives you options for reserve manipulation should you need it.

The only other suggestion i would give is to be certain that the event you are going to expects this level of power. There is nothing wrong playing this if that is the expected power level. But if you go to a tournament that consists of more balanced lists you will find yourself ostracised. I played in a recent tourney where a guy took 3 riptides and the forgeworld riptide and he was (fairly or unfairly) criticisised for his list.

Ive Never seen a list like this, maybe it could work for you. Pretty tough to play though.

buttman wrote:

Psykers have to be taken en masse or they get shutdown, your hq to be honest shouldnt be doing much apart from keeping his head down.

This really just isn't true. Math tells a much different story. If you get 2 Successes, which happens on average 50% of the time on only 3 Dice it takes your opponent on average 10 DtW Dice to have the same odds of Denying it.

That means, just about any lone Psyker has good odds of powering through one power per turn against even High DtW Dice armies. And if you manifest two powers you've got good odds of getting one or both through.

If you throw for three successes, no opposing army besides GK Psyker Spam or Daemon factory will have enough dice to even attempt to stop your powers. And the vast majority of opposing armies don't stand a chance at reliably stopping even 2 Dice Successes.


This whole, "All in or Bust" Psyker nonsense is pure internet fear knee jerk reaction, the reality, even a single caster is just fine against most opponents, and even against enemy Psyker heavy armies you can still power through one critical power a turn with a very good chance of success.

 Nuln_Oil wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I would do the second list. And yes everyone, we all know that this is like every other list, but no need to comment on that, if you have something to post, make it relevant to helping out with the list, not because Eldar are OP as Feth.

I think it's important to point out the absurdity of the rules, the tournament scene, and the players that make it absurd. The above lists are just examples of why competitive play in 40k is really dead. Yeah, you can tell me it isn't, because lots of people go. In actuality, the only people that go are the ones lucky enough to have either had Eldar, Daemons (in the 6th, at least), or SM. A lot of these guys aren't really all that "good" anyway, and that is why they feel compelled to find some way of bending the rules as far as possible. Give them a substandard army and have them play someone who has been playing a substandard army for years, and they will get their ass handed to them. I find it rewarding to point out the absurdity, and what I would almost refer as a conscious disregard to your fellow gamers. If you want to spam the most overly powered units, units that really have no business being that overly powered (transports that only take 14% of their pens? That can shoot their shields? Everything is twinlinked? Fast? AV 12?) This is why most people avoid the tournament scene, because they will face one of two or three lists. The only way to compete is bring one of those lists. It's stupid. It makes no sense. Enjoy playing against other people spamming the same crap as you. I am going to laugh at people like you when the nerf bat swings. There will be no sympathy, none at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add though, that my laughing probably won't be for very long. Most of the people spamming crap like this, once the nerf bat comes, will jump ship upon realizing they can't win unless they spam OP stuff. We'll all have a 6 month window until these guys buy a new army, where only the best units are spammed or some weird combination is abused (2++ reroll, lol?).

First you talk a lot of useless crap .
Second I've played since 1989 and travel around the country to tourneys and have won plenty with other list
Third this is my first time playing Eldar , if you feel to state ( for the third and fourth time ) that's it's like every other list , then ok that's fine but to come back and post a paragraph crying like a noob about the state of the game is what is laughable . Please leave the thread PLEASE. ...thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I would do the second list. And yes everyone, we all know that this is like every other list, but no need to comment on that, if you have something to post, make it relevant to helping out with the list, not because Eldar are OP as Feth. I like your second list more. Something I am trying out is Eldar with Tau allies. I take a small Farisght Bomb with a ton of meltas and a buffsuit, and then I take an AA Riptide and some Kroot. The Eldar Primary is 4 DA + WS Squads, and then 2 Jetbike squads. Hq, minimal Farsser on Bike. The way I run it is for a devastating force in your opponents back field to deal with, but this is a little more based of tactics, playing the objectives.

Now to address the psychic potency. What powers would you be going for, and what would you be using them on? IMO this then dictates a lot of how you want your list to run. Then you can take units that can benefit from what you are casting and become a real problem for your opponent. I hope that this has helped a little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coldsteel wrote:
One Wraithknight is easy to handle. Two is tough. Three is a nightmare.

I see that you are new to dakka. A new player too? 3 Is not a nightmare, because the list is unbalanced then. That was said too. Two is not fun to deal with, but 3 lets you play around a couple of them and just take out the rest of their army due to the fact that its going to be weaker as you have that 3rd WK burning a hole in your points limit.

Your Eldar / Farsight list is interesting , I'm kinda stumbling around with the farseer right now using fate , might try telapathy but to be honest the ataurch is probably better for me because it lets me reserve the bikes with a bit more confidence to bring them in when I need them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:



I

OP, both are strong Serpent Spam Wraightknight lists. Actually, very similar to a video Batrep I watched the other day. It got torn up and basically tabled by a CenturionStar. Grav is nasty, rips up Wraithknights and even Serpents with ease. The more knights you take, the more unbalanced the list becomes, two is a good level, but three is pushing it and overall becomes a weaker list. Necron Tesla Spam and Wraithwing are both pretty strong counters. Tesla destructors can rip up Wave Serpents and hurt Knights if needed and Wraiths and Dlords can be brutal to Knights. CCB Lords aren't as good, but can still be effective. With a 31% chance of getting the Infiltrate Warlord Trait Grav can be brutal. A good Grav SM army can drop both Knights T1 before you even go.

Wave Serpents got better with Objective Secured, but overall with the Jink changes their Damage Output can be lower and ndepending on mission you may need them closer to the enemy.

The new Orks, although untested will probably me a Mid Tier army, have a lot of tools to hurt this kind of lists. Boyz with PKs can Tarpit and Kill Knights, Boyz can also take out Serpents in assault and back you into the corner. Being a brand new Dex, expect to see them. Your entire army can kill ~40 Boyz in one turn without KFF 5++, FNP, Transports, Tanking, or Ard Boyz etc. With Ere We Go and Waaagh they are quick enough to get into assault now and can box in a Serpent Spam Army. Scouting BattleWagons could be bad. Even a MA Warboss with Da Lukky Stik can basically walk across the table towards you and keep an entire Mob Safe.

It's a very strong list, but IMO may not play as strong in 7th depending on Mission. If you run the Farseer list, I'd consider finding enough Pts to run a Warlock in each Jetbikes Squad, 2+ Jink is powerful and will help keep you Farseer alive and casting. You also could consider dropping the Fire a Dragons for another BikeSeer and the warlocks. Gives you more options for powers and two sturdy 2+ Cover units to move around and buff. The FireDragons are terribly needed with two WraithKnights, although if LoW is allowed in the tournament, aid keep them.

All great points thank you for the feedback. Grav is definitely a hard counter , necrons are my main list so definitely right about tesla . In matches like that I have to outplay the opponent as out muscling them wont work. Dropping the fire dragns for another farseer is interesting I can then beef up the bikes , I just wanted to squeeze that extra serpent in


Automatically Appended Next Post:

buttman wrote:
Mk2 to your question,
i think another wraithknight is probably not needed. 3 are very difficult to deal with however if you come up against a hard counter you will have more than a third of your army vulnerable..
also removing the dragons removes another wave serpent so thats something to consider.. if the goal is as powerful as possible than 3 wk, lots of davu wave serpents and a cheap hq is the best way to go.
Psykers have to be taken en masse or they get shutdown, your hq to be honest shouldnt be doing much apart from keeping his head down. The autarch is good because he is cheap and gives you options for reserve manipulation should you need it.

The only other suggestion i would give is to be certain that the event you are going to expects this level of power. There is nothing wrong playing this if that is the expected power level. But if you go to a tournament that consists of more balanced lists you will find yourself ostracised. I played in a recent tourney where a guy took 3 riptides and the forgeworld riptide and he was (fairly or unfairly) criticisised for his list.

Good feedback, I do feel out of sorts with farseer and he ends up running around contesting or taking be times more than a dedicated psychic support piece . Yeah 2 wraith knights I think is better . All tournaments I attend are fairly hardcore with power list , so that's not an issue

Zagman my point about all in psykers are from my experience i cannot attest to your experience however it doesnt make mine invalid. I play eldar with d6 plus 16. Most people i play have roughly 3 plus d6. Generally i shutdown the majority of their powers every turn... particularly holding my dtw dice for specificific spells. Sure he can get spells off but its harder than if you focus.

If you are going to play against a large warp charge pool (Demons and GK generate this fairly easily), I think you will have trouble casting with a single Farseer. However, against other armies with less of a dominating warp charge pool, it can work fairly well and you are not investing in a lot of points just to have a few powers go off. I would, however, recommend taking the Spirit Stone that reduces WC casting by one (to a minimum of one) if you are wanting to utilize the Farseer more for blessings and such.

My second comment really needs to have a 'depends' tag attached. What I mean is it really depends on the type of terrain you play with. I've found the ability to jink with the Wave Serpent is really good, but it impairs my shooting ability quite a bit. Plus, as a Wave Serpent player, I have to declare whether to jink or not before my opponent rolls dice to hit; this is very significant in which I've witnessed players play incorrectly. This degrades my firepower significantly. Cagey opponents will exploit this. If you play with a lot of ruins with bases and still get LOS from the ruins, I've found Ghostwalk Matrix to be invaluable when running multiple Serpents. I can still get a 4+ cover save from the ruin and still fire at full at full affect. But, again I will state this 'depends' on your local terrain set up.

Other than that, I think both lists have a lot of merit. Now, with the change to Battle Brothers, I don't face off against multiple armies with mass ignore cover so the Mantle Autarch has a lot of utility from my experience.

buttman wrote:
Zagman my point about all in psykers are from my experience i cannot attest to your experience however it doesnt make mine invalid. I play eldar with d6 plus 16. Most people i play have roughly 3 plus d6. Generally i shutdown the majority of their powers every turn... particularly holding my dtw dice for specificific spells. Sure he can get spells off but its harder than if you focus.

I cannot attest to your specific experience. A 16WC list is a ton of dice and certainly not the norm. Advocating someone not take Psykers because they could face a list with as many WC as you have is bad advice. Even against your 16+D6 an opponent can throw all their dice at one power, with 3-4 Successes on average you'd have a very small chance of stopping any one power, even using all your dice. So, a single Psyker can be useful, even against a list such as yours that dominates the Psychic Phase. And against the vast majority of the other armies out there that don't have nearly that many dice, single Psykers are just fine. Only certain Eldar, Daemon, and GK builds can put out that many DtW Dice, and arguable won't be the most prominent builds.

We could use specific experience, against two of my three armies you only face 0, 2/4 +d6 dice. A single Psyker has no problem powering through powers. Even against my GK with dice in the teens, Single Psykers can power through the powers they need fairly reliably if they know what they are doing.

Your experience is not invalid, but the mathematical reality of the Psychic Phase is worth much more than our collective experience. It takes 10 Dice to have a ~50% chance of stopping a 2WC Success power. Meaning, even with your average dice, you could only attempt to stop two WC2 powers a turn with marginal success or could throw all of your dice for an ok chance of stopping any one particular power with 2WC. Against a 3-4 WC success, even 16+d6 Dice has below ~50% odds of stopping it. Its very difficult to shut down anyones Psychic Phase. And high WC armies like your are more of an exception than the norm, basing recommendations off a subset of the potential opponents skews the advice a lot.

Foremost, why 5 bikes? It's a very off the wall number. You should drop to three to snag objectives or increase to 6 for 2 cannons.

Additionally, give the Autarch/Farseer Mantle of the Laughing God. It makes him far more survivable than a mere 5 bikes wrapped around him.

Finally, kind of a weird one (take with grain of salt) you could dump the S. Cannons on the Serpents and replace with GWM's. This does several things. First, it makes your list innately more mobile because there's no reason to only move 6". Second, it allows your Serpents to be more durable by putting them in cover for the 3+. And finally, it increases overall firepower because you won't have to jink.

 Will1541 wrote:
Foremost, why 5 bikes? It's a very off the wall number. You should drop to three to snag objectives or increase to 6 for 2 cannons.

Additionally, give the Autarch/Farseer Mantle of the Laughing God. It makes him far more survivable than a mere 5 bikes wrapped around him.

Finally, kind of a weird one (take with grain of salt) you could dump the S. Cannons on the Serpents and replace with GWM's. This does several things. First, it makes your list innately more mobile because there's no reason to only move 6". Second, it allows your Serpents to be more durable by putting them in cover for the 3+. And finally, it increases overall firepower because you won't have to jink.

I never even thought of GWM, that's food for thought for sure . 5 bikes was just filling the points for 1850 , I think I am going to drop some bikes and add the Mantle, good feedback !

Really? Another serpent spam list? Ha! I would run it too if I had it. Its not often a list will be good two editions in a row. The first list seems the best out of the two. I love the Aardvark on a Bike, great for murdering MSU. I would drop the firedragons, but for what? Maybe more bikes?