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Heh, my first thread. And i'll celebrate with tea!

I'm kind of shaking my head at the moment. I've seen about a dozen threads crop up over the last few weeks that went down in flames. I'm genuinely hoping this won't end up being one of those. im deliberately trying not to "hate". Or complain. I might be naive, but its certainly not my aim.

Its a shame to see all the negativity. Is it justified? Certainly, in my mind. Well, sorry. At least some of it is, some of the time. For all the time though? But do you know what's worse? Its the fact that the gaming community here on Dakka is so fractured, and argumentative. Things can get very heated, very fast. Sometimes it feels there is more "breaking stuff" going on than "building stuff". And its a genuine shame. I don't think this is a good thing. I'd like to see some "building". Please, read below. I'll give you my thought process behind this first, and then ask for other input. for the tl/dr crowd, just head straight to the bottom

Now, for me. I'd like to state my personal position before making what i hope is a valid thread. For what its worth, i have little interest in 40k. (And that's OK, because this thread isnt about me... Please bear with me...) I find it a clunky, scitzophrenic and frustrating game. I used to be a big fan. Played back in third and fourth. Apparently, i'm one of the 10% of players that last about 10 years or more in Gw games. But i got tired of it, walked away, took time out, and when i came back, it was to warmachine, and infinity. Love them. But i'm not here to talk about why i think they're good games. I'll do the sales pitch in the proper forum. I'm not here to say nasty things about playing 40k, even if some of those complaints are arguably very valid points. You may disagree. You see, as i alluded above - i don't play 40k. My only investment in it at the moment is a love of Imperial Armour. Now, where am i going?

Complaints on the internet have their place. Its great if they lead to something. I can raise an issue on the PP boards, and things happen? GW. Meh, nowhere nearly as interested. They're in an "ivory tower" somewhere - i like that term, by the way. By complaining, I'm simply wasting my breath. Nothing is solved. And that is the key issue for me. Here? Sadly, a lot of the threads can be circular. And i will hold my hand up and say i've been sucked into them and happily involved in them. But i'm not here to sit on a moral high horse and cast judgement on the forumites. ( i left my staff of judgement at the office!) Venting is fun at times, and somewhat necessary in life, but i find sadly it ends up being a very circular process with no "results" at the end - a lot of the time, all that gets done is reinforcing your own opinion. we end up converting ourselves! So to me at least, i suppose i'm saying "talk is fine, but action is better". And i ask myself, what actions are appropriate if talking is kind of pointless?

Well, i feel personally, if you have issues with things, there are 3 valid actions. By the way, please feel free to disagree with me here; this isnt the focus of the thread - its just a long winded intro!).
(1) Simply continue. however, personally i find this isnt satisfactory. It lets frustrations build up and doesnt solve issues.
(2) Walk away. Do something else. This is what i personally did. i have a lot of tau and space marines in a box. i often here the argument that people are too invested, so shouldnt have to walk away. I disagree. I did, and am happy. YMMV.
(3) third option. And this is the one i really want to build upon with this thread. If the game doesnt work, adapt the game to suit the needs of you, and your friends. And yes, i know the limitations. it suits a small group of friends who play "co-operatively". It doesnt suit pick up games or tournaments. it has its issues.

Now another aside (these have a point, dont worry). Little thing abbout me. Has any one seen American History X? Edward Norton. Ed Furlong? Great movie. Its very profound, and watching it shaped part of my personal development. How? Well, Its about fascists. Norton is the fascist. He talks the talk. And he walks the walk. Goes to jail for killing a few black teenagers. Key part is, in prison, bad things happen to him from his neo nazi buddies. One of the key scenes has him in the infirmary, and his old teacher comes to visit him. THey chat. Teacher explains how he understands the anger and rage behind him. How he used to be just as angry, and vengeful. How he'd blame everyone else for all the problems in his life, all the bad things that happened. How he used to blame society. Blame God. But all this time, he never got any answers, because he was always asking the wrong questions. How all this anger got him nowhere. Promted, Norton asks about this "question", and his teacher answers by saying its the most important question; the only question. "What have you done to make your life better"?[u]

Profound. At least for me. I'll admit, i was a bullied, whiny little shrimp of a teenager. blamed everyone else. never me. No sir... That movie... That single question? yeah, it made me change my outlook a lot. Made me stand up, and be counted. No one was going to save me, i had to do it myself. I become a lot more assertive, a lot more willing, and able to be the change i wanted to be. I'd just go off and do it, whereas i wouldnt have before.

For what its worth, i'd like to bring that question here and try something, other than the usual talk. "What have you done to make your games better"? Its a lead-on from my point 3 above - from the approach that one is willing to change, and adapt things in their games to make them better, at least for themselves. Its a simple question i'd like to ask.

The simple scenario i want to create is for folks who are tired of the games they play. For whatever reason, they're simply not working for them. So here it is. A thread, full of ideas from other people of the changes they've made to the games they play, to make them better. So that, when Little tim is tired of 40k, and wants to vent, he'll remember that weirdo Deadnight had a thread up sometime ago with lots of cool, and quirky ideas. maybe there'd be something in there he could mine, and use in his own games? Worth a shot, eh? So instead of venting, he might go off read the thread, come up with some ideas, do something positive with it, try them out and have a go - rather than just giving out about problems.

Now i don't pretend this is the answer to all faults with 40k. Nor am i saying "dont be negative", "leave you haters", "white knights". Or any of that. this isnt for that. this is a little bit different. Hopefully, it'll end up being a thread with some positive game-building, game-changing, game-modification, house rules and scenario-building ideas? I'd only add the caveat - please bring up things you've actually done - theory has no place. Actual things you've done? Yeah, go for it. Ignored points values? banned allies? design each others army lists? House rule new points values? Different rules sets? And so on.

Essentially, what have you done to make your games better?

What changes/modifications do you play 40k with? What was the outcome? Did the changes achieve what you set out to do?

Hey, i know it was a long thread, but thanks!

Well for me it is
(1) Figure out who to avoid: this doesnt mean do not play competative players or hard list, this means avoid the TFG and WAACs that twists rules or out right cheat.
(2) Let it go: When some one wants to ham it out with something that is too close (like how many units shooting what in range or LOS (when it is close)) better just to finish the game then refer back to 1 if it is relevant
(3) Beer: oh god yes
(4) Break the tension: when something really bad or dumb or amazing happens, try to break the tension with joke or make up a narrative story so people dont get frayed
(5) keep the peanut gallery quite: i cant fraking stand people commenting on games they arnt even playing so shadup already.

I've mercilessly crushed my enemies with the most efficient power-gamer lists I could concoct, so as to teach new players that we live in a world that is unforgiving and devoid of Gods.

 Desubot wrote:
Well for me it is
(1) Figure out who to avoid: this doesnt mean do not play competative players or hard list, this means avoid the TFG and WAACs that twists rules or out right cheat.
(2) Let it go: When some one wants to ham it out with something that is too close (like how many units shooting what in range or LOS (when it is close)) better just to finish the game then refer back to 1 if it is relevant
(3) Beer: oh god yes
(4) Break the tension: when something really bad or dumb or amazing happens, try to break the tension with joke or make up a narrative story so people dont get frayed
(5) keep the peanut gallery quite: i cant fraking stand people commenting on games they arnt even playing so shadup already.

This is a pretty good list of things. I will add one more thing that might sound strange, but I try to play with the rules as written. Don't try to figure out what is OP, or messed up in some way. Just play the rules out of the books and codexes as they are written without bans, changes, restriction, etc...

I chose option 2.

I implemented a 40K charter at the local club, partly codifying what was/wasn't "legal" in general, pick up play, and partly outlining a "philosophy" that we expected people to adopt.

Have posted it before, but I'll edit it Hereford convenience in a sec when I've found it....

Here it is..

Games are 1500 points.

All lists are battle forged - allied detachments are allowed.

All codexes are legal, digital or paper, but must be available for reference and opponent's information during a game.

While we will maintain our usual relaxed attitude to painting (ie it is encouraged but not compulsory) any models that are not part of the starting list (ie are generated via Malefic Daemonolgy) must be properly represented by an appropriate model, fully painted and based.

Superheavies listed in a Codex are permitted, those featured in Imperial Armour, Escalation are not.

Fortifications are not widely used currently, and with the removal of everything from the ADL up from the BRB, may likely remain not especially popular. For the time being, Stronghold Assault will be allowed in it's entirety. The possibility of revising this is reserved should things get popular and lead to games where one player doesn't enjoy themselves facing off against elements from this book. The book or digital rules must be available for reference and your opponent's information.

Forge World units with the "suitable for 40K" stamp are allowed, but must be supported with rules, either digital or physical. It is strongly advised if an opponent is fielding a unit (FW or otherwise) you are unfamiliar with, that you take a moment to familiarise yourself with those rules before the game.

Not so much a rule as a guideline - 40K in it's current form is not what could be considered a tight, balanced or competitive ruleset. At it's core it remains a game that has the potential to be hugely entertaining, with many units and factions to make interesting lists and to try new and different strategies. But, in order to ensure EVERYONE has fun, it needs a little help from those playing to be responsible and conscientious in their list building. Net lists, deathstars, spamming and loophole exploitation are STRONGLY discouraged. Nobody likes spending an hour picking their models off the table as they're killed by the handful, while simultaneously being unable to do anything to retaliate. Remember, nearly every list has a hard counter out there somewhere, so rather than start a massive arms race with players bringing lists each week to get revenge on the player that shafted them last week, please consider your opponents enjoyment alongside your own when putting together an army.

I play an army I like, against friends who aren't douches.

Works pretty well for me.

I've been working on a 40K rule set my friends and I can use for our games. We don't have a gaming club in my neck of the woods anymore, so it's all down to friends playing with friends. Generally, we can all agree about what elements of 3rd, 4th, and 5th Edition worked and what elements did not, and so we pull what we like out of one and stick it with something we like from another.

We aren't finished yet, but I think we'll have something good before too long. If nothing else, it will keep us in the game for a few more years.

I just knew the title was an American History X reference. I watched it for the first time last night.

Congratulations on your first thread!

I chose option #3.

I am lucky to have a cadre of diehard 40K fans who love the hobby but also realize GW has stunk things up a bit the last few years. Most of us started at the beginning of 3rd, and we felt the game was progressing until 5th edition seemed more a lateral shift (that version of TLOS and wound allocation were the worst offenders) simply for change's sake, so we blended the two editions and added more of our own content (especially scenarios). I continue to follow the forums and GW's latest efforts to see what improvements or considerations can be gleaned from it all, in addition to reasonable arguments about what works, why it works, and how engaging it is for a wargame. It IS a wargame after all, not an RPG although we do enjoy sending officious pregame smack in character before we do battle. I think GW's current trend of randomization (among other things) is rapidly killing their golden goose, and the next two financial reports will be very telling.

So to sum up, we've removed ourselves from the carousel of GW's business practices and enjoy the game more now than ever. I wish the best for 40K to continue so I really want radical change for the better, but so far the SS Games Workshop is taking on water in icy seas and they are still rearranging the deck chairs.

Just play other things. Easier than trying to fix it if you have a crowd of willing folks either already playing something else or they too want to learn a new game.

Painting lots helps.

I have thusfar "forgotten" to use mysterious terrain/objectives rules. This really speeds things up and removes pointless randomness from the game.

As a player I always try to "tailor" the power of my list to fit the expected power of the opposition- playing against a "non-competative" IG player in a regular game I wouldn't use lists of the same "level" I'd use facing an Eldar or Tau player (unless I KNOW they're playing badly sub-optimal lists).

Basically over here we do the same thing with every game, be it miniature or TCG - we shun TFGs. As simple as that. Be it rules lawyering, bringing stuff that's largely unfun or bad attitude - any kind of behaviour that makes other players uncomfortable. If it ruins someone else's fun, it should be changed. We always try to reason with those, convince them that it's against the good spirit of a friendly game and if he doesn't change, he's going to be treated as second class citizen. It works with everything and everyone mighty fine once your group figures out what kind of things they do and what they don't like.

Often small tweaks also help with the rules if everyone agrees that it'll make it better. Good example is the 7th maelstrom objective cards. A simple fix of "discard what you can't achieve" really makes it a whole different(and fun) thing.

There's one point made by those who criticize 40k/GW, though, that makes your approach, OP, a dangerous thing - the more effort you expect yourself to put to make the game more enjoyable for you, the less effort it is for GW to make a tight ruleset. I am most often against the negativity towards the game, but going an extra mile to fix the game, despite having it's good sides(you can always add stuff that you and your friends like to make it even better), it also treads on thin ice in that it makes the developer lazy, expecting YOU to patch up their game to make it enjoyable for you as they can't/don't want to do it themselves.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I play an army I like, against friends who aren't douches.

Works pretty well for me.

This sums it up for me too

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I play an army I like, against friends who aren't douches.

Works pretty well for me.

Yep this is entirely how to make anything you enjoy enjoyable.
See a douche? Ignore them!

As for the game, mix it up a little with either other games or a more interesting table set up that keeps it from being the same thing over and over again.

I've come back to 7th edition after leaving Games Workshop when 3rd came out (and not because I didn't like it).

So far I've had nothing but a blast playing it.

Here's what I've done;

Played with friends
Followed the setup rules
Ensured at least 25% terrain - if not more - with plenty of complete LOS blocking scenery
Played smaller scale games so we can get more in
Played doubles

I've also run games for my other two friends getting into it. I set up the board, rolled the mission and placed objectives. I did the book-keeping, made 50/50 decisions and encouraged a positive environment. It worked great.

40k has always been a social game for me. I like the fluff, the models, the concept. I want to enjoy it with friends.

If I wouldn't want to go for beer with a person I certainly wouldn't play 40k with them.