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Hello all,

So I am modeling my Nobz and they come ten per unit. The first unit of Nobz I assembled were 9 Nobz, all with Power Klaws and one Pain Boss. I realized quickly that though this unit was essentially my "dream team" it was far too expensive to field in any normal game since PKs are 25 points a pop.

The second unit I just finished. Five Nobs with PKs, 4 with Big Choppas, and one Pain Boss. Then I wrote my army list and thought maybe I'd do better with just 3 PKs per unit and 6 Big Choppas (plus the Pain Boss).

So looking for experienced opinions. How many PKs should I put in each unit of Nobs? Don't want to lose out by choosing too few. Don't want to waste points by buying too many.

How many do you use?

Thanks!
Solorg

2-3 seems to be the norm around here. I've sometimes put 4-5 but those are rare occasions.

4-5 can SOMETIMES work with Battlewagon Nobz, but by then it's a better idea to user MANz

In every mob, unless I can field a Kill-Saw instead

 happygolucky wrote:
In every mob, unless I can field a Kill-Saw instead

Word on that.

I'm a big fan of the Big Choppa. It saves a whopping 20 points for a hit that's only 2 str lower. Klaws are one of Orks' best ways to tear apart vehicles, but in a Nob squad you can easily glance a vehicle to death with Big Choppas (unless it's AV12 or higher in the rear). Big Choppas are also much better in challenges, since they let you get your hits in if the opponent is going to kill you at I3 or I2. So I don't really think a Nob squad of 5 or more really benefits much from a Klaw. If you face a lot of Land Raiders or Monoliths a couple could be really useful, but anything else is better countered with a BC.

A Boyz mob is better against vehicles if you have a Klaw, but if it's rear armor 10 a decent sized mob will probably glance it to death on the charge. If you're worried about challenges, again the BC is the better option.

Conceptually I love PKs, but the price difference is such that I don't tend to field many.

Edit: Klaws are also important if you fight a lot of walkers, but it's been so long since I've faced a melee walker that it completely slipped my mind. So yeah, if there are walkers in your meta, a couple of Klaws in a Nob Squad (and maybe on Boyz Boss Nobs) will help.

Bludbaff wrote:I'm a big fan of the Big Choppa. It saves a whopping 20 points for a hit that's only 2 str lower.

Sure, but that's like saying a lasgun is much better than a heavy bolter. After all, it's cheaper, and it's only 2S lower. Also, why would you bother with a big choppa at all, when their regular choppa is FREE and is likewise only a bit lower strength than the big choppa?

I'd still take klaws, regardless of their ludicrous price. Sometimes more S matters, and sometimes there's just no substitute for Ap2+.

 Ailaros wrote:

Bludbaff wrote:I'm a big fan of the Big Choppa. It saves a whopping 20 points for a hit that's only 2 str lower.

Sure, but that's like saying a lasgun is much better than a heavy bolter. After all, it's cheaper, and it's only 2S lower. Also, why would you bother with a big choppa at all, when their regular choppa is FREE and is likewise only a bit lower strength than the big choppa?

I'd still take klaws, regardless of their ludicrous price. Sometimes more S matters, and sometimes there's just no substitute for Ap2+.

Maybe because he/she wants too?

I remember fielding Big Choppas and they actually do quite well on the table with Nobz, they do alter their role on the battlefield but they still do quite well imo.

 Ailaros wrote:

Bludbaff wrote:I'm a big fan of the Big Choppa. It saves a whopping 20 points for a hit that's only 2 str lower.

Sure, but that's like saying a lasgun is much better than a heavy bolter. After all, it's cheaper, and it's only 2S lower. Also, why would you bother with a big choppa at all, when their regular choppa is FREE and is likewise only a bit lower strength than the big choppa?

I'd still take klaws, regardless of their ludicrous price. Sometimes more S matters, and sometimes there's just no substitute for Ap2+.

There is a diminishing return on higher strength. If you're fighting something with toughness, once you get to 2+ to wound, additional strength means very little (instant death threshold, if you're fighting something with multiple wounds). The difference between 5 and 7 will be consequential for anything with 4 or more toughness, and the difference between 7 and 9 will only matter for 6+ toughness or 4+ multi-wound.

AP2 is a good point though, I did not consider that.

Instant death, ignoring FNP, vehicles and monstrous creatures. There's a lot that having more than medium strength helps with.

Yeah, you won't squish guardsmen any harder, of course, but, well, what's the rest of your army doing? If you have a mob of 30 sluggas, what's a big choppa really adding to the squad that 30 regular choppas can't already handle?

The diminishing return is a lot stronger when you consider quantity of weapons than it is considering the increase in quality.

The problem with big choppas has always been that they don't distinguish themselves enough from regular choppas to bother taking at all when choppas are free, and they're not as good as the klaws that you'd actually spend points on because they're actually better.

I guess with the exception being a nob squad (can they still take regular choppas?) where you don't want EVERYTHING at I1, but even then...

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, you won't squish guardsmen any harder, of course, but, well, what's the rest of your army doing? If you have a mob of 30 sluggas, what's a big choppa really adding to the squad that 30 regular choppas can't already handle?

Challenges. Any case where a BC Nob would refuse a challenge due to being squished before his action, a PK nob would suffer the same. But there are cases where the BC will swing before the enemy that could have squished the PK nob. Anyway, I did mention that Boyz mobs will benefit more from a PK than Nob Squads because they can't do the massed medium strength that trades off with smaller amounts of high strength. If challenges are a bigger problem for your Boyz Nob than needing anti-vehicle capability, the BC is worthwhile, but the PK is a good choice there too.

The problem with big choppas has always been that they don't distinguish themselves enough from regular choppas to bother taking at all when choppas are free, and they're not as good as the klaws that you'd actually spend points on because they're actually better.

I guess with the exception being a nob squad (can they still take regular choppas?) where you don't want EVERYTHING at I1, but even then...

And a nob squad is what OP was asking about. I would rather have five nobz with big choppas, swinging fifteen S6 I3 attacks, than one with a power klaw and four with slugga/choppa swinging 16 S4 I3 and 3 S8 I1 for the same price. Especially when you consider that the BC frees you to take TL shootas for 3 points a pop (or kombis for more) without losing any CC attacks.

Depends on how versatile you want your boyz squads to be.

I want every squad to at least be able to not get blobbed down by some high armor value thing.

Trukks running fast at vehicles and shooting them with rokkits and wrecking balls, and then the boys with their PKs... kinda seems nice.

In my experience so far, running 1 Klaw wherever its possible is usually enough to get the job done, no matter what it is. Though, in rare cases, I'll bring a couple, especially if I know my opponent is bringing nasty things that might tie up one Klaw in a challenge.

Your Boyz Nob's Klaw is well capable of snapping legs off Walkers and outright exploding most Vehicles. You're opponent should be aware of this, and usually is. It's usually important to have enough Klaws so you're greatest tool ceases to exist on the board. Though Biker Nob in a Biker group with Klaw is a scary thing.

My personal rule of thumb: More than 2 Klaws in a single unit is overkill, and a waste of points. But always have at least 1 Klaw wherever its able to be taken.

Thanks for this advice. It will really help me when putting together my Nobs Units, everyone.

ALL the klawz you can get.

At least that's what I plan on doing. Then again, I think making the council of Waaagh! formation into a full 1850 point army is a good idea, so take that 'pro-tip' with mountainous amounts of salt.

I think for an average unit of nobz you want about 3-4 klawz. That ought to make them dead killy. You can use less, but for a nobz mob I'd grab 2, so the one klaw can't get sniped or killed before he gets to swing.

3-4 per group of 9-10

 Ailaros wrote:
Instant death, ignoring FNP, vehicles and monstrous creatures. There's a lot that having more than medium strength helps with.

Yeah, you won't squish guardsmen any harder, of course, but, well, what's the rest of your army doing? If you have a mob of 30 sluggas, what's a big choppa really adding to the squad that 30 regular choppas can't already handle?

The diminishing return is a lot stronger when you consider quantity of weapons than it is considering the increase in quality.

The problem with big choppas has always been that they don't distinguish themselves enough from regular choppas to bother taking at all when choppas are free, and they're not as good as the klaws that you'd actually spend points on because they're actually better.

I guess with the exception being a nob squad (can they still take regular choppas?) where you don't want EVERYTHING at I1, but even then...

Hey if this guy want to field some big choppas and make buzz sound and laught as maniac weird boy in the process then is alright, even if the power klay can make more human juice than the big choppa, the last look pretty scary and awson too, and if it s wehicles what you want to kill the new killsaw is the weapon, throw a mek or big mek witha killsaw to wreck any tank or walker you face, it is better with the big mek because you gonna have 4 s9 ap2 armourbane attacks on the charge, its a death sentence even for a landraider

I have about 10 AoBR Nobs in case I want to field Slugga Choppas.

Normally I field two Power Klaws. One with a Waaagh Banner and one with a Bosspole. And sometimes one with nothing to accept challenges.

How many models with it do you have?

That many.

Joking aside, i feel there is no "too many" powerklaws limit unless you are sacrificing a LOT of bodies or guns to get 1 more klaw. Obviously ~20 MANz isnt quite as intimidating as a proppa green tide backed by some mek gunz for the same cost.
Only nob i never put a PK on is the Tankbusta one, because why the gak would you do that lol he has a melta bomb already for big bugs or vehicles, and if that unit faces anything else theyre dead anyway.

Nob with a choppa vs nob with a bigchoppa. Just comparing possibility to wound without rolls to-hit cause it doesn't matter now
BC = bigchoppa
C = choppa

On the charge:
vs T3: BC - 3.33, C - 4.17
vs T4: BC - 3.33, C - 3.33
vs T5: BC - 3.33, C - 2.50
vs T6: BC - 2.67, C - 1.67
vs T7: BC - 2,00, C - 0.83
vs T8: BC - 1.33, C - 0.83

Without a charge:
vs T3: BC - 2.50, C - 2.67
vs T4: BC - 2.50, C - 2.00
vs T5: BC - 2.00, C - 1.33
vs T6: BC - 1.50, C - 0.67
vs T7: BC - 1,00, C - 0.67
vs T8: BC - 0.50, C - can't hurt

Imo, big choppas are not necessary for nobz. It's still not a significant enough increase vs tough targets with good saves and you still need PK-s to deal with those problems. While softer and less tough targets die to regular choppas just the same. The only real game issue might be when you fight a wraithknight more than for 1 turn. But even with a bigchoppa 1 nob inflicts 0.08 unsaved wounds to a wraithknight. Yep, you still need PK's to do anything.

Bigchoppas have ap5 now...but does it really matter? You basically pay 5 pts for ap5 and a bit better chance of doing anything vs T6+ targets that generally can murder your nobz anysayz.

My all-comers 6-strong Nob mob has 2 PKs, 2BCs and 2 kombi skorchas - it's served me well in many games, just the right amount of CC killyness to clean up backfield heavy weapons units.

2 PK's is enough. If 2 PK nobs and a couple of regular ones get into combat, that'll be enough to wipe out most enemy units.

Save those points for another unit of Nobs.