Tournament tactics: How to beat point denial lists?

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**YourIntestines**

With high elves, the two 'main' point denial units mentioned here (Slann and temple guard + elf unit with BotWD) can be easily countered with magic. Purple Sun of Xereus will turn Lizardmen into soup, and Arcane Unforging can pop BotWD easily.

**YourIntestines**

thedarkavenger wrote:
YourIntestines wrote:
With high elves, the two 'main' point denial units mentioned here (Slann and temple guard + elf unit with BotWD) can be easily countered with magic. Purple Sun of Xereus will turn Lizardmen into soup, and Arcane Unforging can pop BotWD easily.

A) The Temple Guard unit isn't a point denial unit. Hit it with white lions and watch it go "ARGH!" *dead*. Seriously. Without life/light buffs up every orifice, it doesn't survive combats.

B) That only works if the Banner is on the BSB. As you can't pick out a standard bearer with arcane unforging. It targets a single model, with the exception that you can pick characters out of the unit. You cannot physically choose to target the standard bearer.

So you are saying that a standard bearer is more than one model?

I get the feeling that we are using different definitions of 'single'

**YourIntestines**

japehlio wrote:
YourIntestines, seriously dont bother going into this again. In TDA's meta and local group, apparently the presiding ruling is that A.U cant hit standards. Despite the fact that almost every single other person plays it the other way...

In that case, unless OP is playing that way, what I said still applies.

**YourIntestines**

thedarkavenger wrote:
DukeRustfield wrote:
thedarkavenger wrote:
With deathsnipes, it specifically states, even a model within a unit. This overrides the whole "You can't target a standard bearer" thing.

Now. Arcane Unforging doesn't say that. It says, you can target a single model, even a character in a unit.

Is a standard bearer a character? No. Is he/she a single model? Yes. Ergo, deathsnipes will target him, but unforging won't.

Whether a standard bearer is a character or not is irrelevant. "Even" is an addendum. It's a corollary.

**I can stand on my hands, even in the snow.

I.e., it does not have to be snowing for me to stand on my hands. I can stand on my hands in either case. The "even" provides an expansion to the first clause, not a reduction.

"A single model" would include a standard bearer. If it then said: "even a model with a really bad paint job." You wouldn't be limited to only casting at a model with a bad paint job. It would just say, you can attack them too. It's really redundant, because a single model covers anything. Even is used for clarification. It's to let you know something that you might not think is true in the first clause, is true in the second clause. If it said, except, but not, excluding, etc, those would be modifiers that removed the next phrase from the first. I think you can see that even is not a synonym for those words.

**We are open 24 hours, 7 days a week, even holidays. -- Doesn't mean it has to be a holiday for them to be open. Normally you might think the first clause doesn't include it, so it's a clarification.
**We are open 24 hours, 7 days a week, excluding holidays. -- Very different.

It kind of does matter. With death snipes, if specifically overrides the targeting restrictions by saying you can target a model in a unit. Arcane Unforging does not. As it targets single models. But only characters in units.

Shall we stop this argument now?

It is clear that it will only derail the thread. This is a thread on how to counter point denial, not a thread for persuading the OP to play the game your way.