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Are Septimus and Octavia Victims or Victimizers? I've heard a lot of people here saying its sad how their treated by the Night Lords who "couldn't stand that they were in love and happy"(this is an exact quote). Septimus at one points offers murder for hire and uses his position to try to act like king of the Legion serfs. He kills and if you want to see his true colors and what he is capable of is when he threatens to leave Murac to die at hells Iris when he voices moral objections. Is that really that different' than the beating that Talos gave him? Septimus keeps those lower on the ship hierarchy in line just the same as any Night Lord. He even admits that he's a murdering pirate and a heretic, Murac even tells him that.

As for Octavia. She treats her servants about the same as the Night lords do, she and her boyfriend even refer to one as "hound" but then she feels sorry when he dies like the deformed man was some sort of pet. She's a slave and she keeps slaves of her own, I could say the astartes were slaves (as Sevatar did) till their primarchs died and then they became masters. She kills the astropaths in way crueler than anything Talos had done to them, the most painful in universe way to die.

Its worth mentioning that either could have ended their lives, Septimus could have eaten his gun and Octavia could have destroyed the ship. They chose to continue their twisted lives living to fight again just like the Legion does. I'd have to say out of the whole crew Talos is the only one who actually wants to die.

Are they victims because they suffered, because Septimus got beaten half to death twice and Octavia was raped? Does suffering make one a victim? If thats the case then Talos is a victim born to a sex slave and forced to fight in the gang that owned his mother, taken and turned into a superhuman murder-machine only to have to kill his mother and his world, led by a father and Primarch and Emperor who who hated him for different reasons.

In closing i'd like to say my opinion that I think they filled both roles at different times.

They're victims of their environment.

But one of the central themes of the Night Lords trilogy is that there are no real "good guys". Everyone aboard those ships is an donkey-cave to various degrees. The characters that we spend three novels rooting for and wanting to succeed are vicious psychopathic monsters who slaughter thousands for the lulz, even going so far as to hunt down and murder little girls for no reason other than to pop the Astartes equivalent of a stiffy.

Septimus and Octavia are both given somewhat sympathetic qualities so as to be Human and act as our looking glass into the story. That does not make them heroes or sympathetic characters.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They're victims of their environment.

But one of the central themes of the Night Lords trilogy is that there are no real "good guys". Everyone aboard those ships is an donkey-cave to various degrees. The characters that we spend three novels rooting for and wanting to succeed are vicious psychopathic monsters who slaughter thousands for the lulz, even going so far as to hunt down and murder little girls for no reason other than to pop the Astartes equivalent of a stiffy.

Septimus and Octavia are both given somewhat sympathetic qualities so as to be Human and act as our looking glass into the story. That does not make them heroes or sympathetic characters.

I found both Septimus and Octavia to be sympathetic characters in the Talos Trilogy, along with Uzas and Talos to some degree.

The Night Lords trilogy epitomizes the 'no more heroes' story. There are NO good guys to be found, which frees us up as readers to root for bad guys as protagonists without feeling guilty. (Aaron Dembski-Bowden does this the RIGHT way, incidentally, and reminds us periodically that they ARE the bad guys, and we SHOULD feel guilty for supporting them.)

However, despite being protagonists, and victims of horrific inhumane treatment at the hands of their fallen captors, Octavia and Septimus are both abusers themselves, after a fashion. The proverbial cycle of abuse is like that. Both of them act and react, living their lives in a world where they are at the mercy of cruel, uncaring masters, and lash out in petty, cruel, or self-destructive ways in order to get through their lives. (You know, like everyone else in 40k, just with a little less self-deception.)

that they ARE the bad guys, and we SHOULD feel guilty for supporting them

So who should we support? The combat servitors in Soul Hunter, the Blood Angels who have just as much of an issue of chopping up a young girl, the Ultramarine who can't help quoting propaganda and giving lame speeches, or the Eldar who value human life less than the Night Lords.

treatment at the hands of their fallen captors

Octavia probably got treated better than she would have on an Imperial ship where they would think she was a witch and might burn her.

SHOULD feel guilty

I've never felt guilty for how I feel about fictional characters, I do however find it interesting on a psychological level how people react to fictional situations.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They're victims of their environment.

But one of the central themes of the Night Lords trilogy is that there are no real "good guys". Everyone aboard those ships is an donkey-cave to various degrees. The characters that we spend three novels rooting for and wanting to succeed are vicious psychopathic monsters who slaughter thousands for the lulz, even going so far as to hunt down and murder little girls for no reason other than to pop the Astartes equivalent of a stiffy.

Septimus and Octavia are both given somewhat sympathetic qualities so as to be Human and act as our looking glass into the story. That does not make them heroes or sympathetic characters.

I found both Septimus and Octavia to be sympathetic characters in the Talos Trilogy, along with Uzas and Talos to some degree.

You shouldn't. Soul Reaver opens with him murdering a bunch of random dudes in cold blood so that the Night Lords could more easily raid their space station. He's as much a scumbag as any of the Astartes.

Both Septimus and Octavia are entirely complicit in the Night Lords' debauchery. That makes them both just as bad.

Septimus and Octavia both have stockholmes syndrome. Look at their attitude towards the Night Lords.

"Oh, you captured, enslaved, and tormented me? I love you Talos. I'll do anything you say. We're the good guys, rite?"

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
They're victims of their environment.

But one of the central themes of the Night Lords trilogy is that there are no real "good guys". Everyone aboard those ships is an donkey-cave to various degrees. The characters that we spend three novels rooting for and wanting to succeed are vicious psychopathic monsters who slaughter thousands for the lulz, even going so far as to hunt down and murder little girls for no reason other than to pop the Astartes equivalent of a stiffy.

Septimus and Octavia are both given somewhat sympathetic qualities so as to be Human and act as our looking glass into the story. That does not make them heroes or sympathetic characters.

I found both Septimus and Octavia to be sympathetic characters in the Talos Trilogy, along with Uzas and Talos to some degree.

You shouldn't. Soul Reaver opens with him murdering a bunch of random dudes in cold blood so that the Night Lords could more easily raid their space station. He's as much a scumbag as any of the Astartes.

Both Septimus and Octavia are entirely complicit in the Night Lords' debauchery. That makes them both just as bad.

It's war. You might as well complain how America bombed Berlin or shot POW's. Especialy in a scenario like W40K, eternal galactic war, with the civilians living in a fascist regime that all work to support the war machine, civilian centers of industry are completely legal targets of oppertunity.

It's war. You might as well complain how America bombed Berlin or shot POW's. Especialy in a scenario like W40K, eternal galactic war, with the civilians living in a fascist regime that all work to support the war machine, civilian centers of industry are completely legal targets of oppertunity.

The Imperium thinks that Chaos civilians are ok targets, sometimes even Imperial citizens who happened to find out about inconvenient events like the Horus Heresy and then have to be purged. Didn't they virus bomb the worlds that sided with Horus?

This is a universe where the very concept of human rights doesn't exist. In Storm of Iron Honsou marvels at the idea that in ancient times surrenders were accepted because it is so alien to 40k.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's war. You might as well complain how America bombed Berlin or shot POW's. Especialy in a scenario like W40K, eternal galactic war, with the civilians living in a fascist regime that all work to support the war machine, civilian centers of industry are completely legal targets of oppertunity.

So? Since when is "it's war" a justification for anything? He's still a cold blooded murderer who butchers non-combatants and actively assists a band of psychopaths who get erections from butchering entire worlds because they're bored.

If that doesn't make him a reprehensible character then there is no such thing as a reprehensible character. Please don't make a moral-relativity/point of view appeal. My heart wouldn't be able to take it, man. It's fragile.

I think the point is that you have to consider the context of the times.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's war. You might as well complain how America bombed Berlin or shot POW's. Especialy in a scenario like W40K, eternal galactic war, with the civilians living in a fascist regime that all work to support the war machine, civilian centers of industry are completely legal targets of oppertunity.

So? Since when is "it's war" a justification for anything? He's still a cold blooded murderer who butchers non-combatants and actively assists a band of psychopaths who get erections from butchering entire worlds because they're bored.

If that doesn't make him a reprehensible character then there is no such thing as a reprehensible character. Please don't make a moral-relativity/point of view appeal. My heart wouldn't be able to take it, man. It's fragile.

The point is that in total war, civilians are combatants as they fuel the industry that supports the war machine of the empire they work under. It's like shooting the tires out from a car so you can easily catch up to it and then kill the driver.

I don't think the point is that their justified i think its addressing the fact that all sides are pretty barbaric in 40k, its a universe where life is cheap.