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Just a quick question as I dont have my rule book in front of me at work, if I deep strike a flyer I can choose whether it's hovering or zooming correct?

Only select Forgeworld Flyers have the Deep Strike rule. If you are not playing Forgeworld, this does not apply.

When Deep Striking, you may indeed pick flight mode, but Zooming in comes with trouble in the RaW:

You "count as" having moved cruising speed, but your model has not actually moved 18". An ongoing debate will be struck upon this statement, but if you select to Zoom, be ready to know the Deep Striking rules inside-out if you do not want the Flyer to Crash and Burn.

I may have gotten it wrong... will need to check.

Indeed,
Keep in mind that Deep Strike was stripped from all fliers in 6th edition, via Errata to the older Codex's, and that has clearly carried over to 7th.

The issue stems with the 'count as' as BlackTalos pointed out, but in particular with the very wording of that clause and a timing problem it creates. That whole section begins with the words 'in that Turn's Shooting Phase...' so it creates a very clear moment in the timeline in which this Rule comes into effect. As the Flyer Unit Type contains a Rule that a Zooming Flyer which hasn't moved 18 inches during the Movement Phase is automatically wrecked, that would trigger first in the timeline. This would mean the flyer is wrecked before it gains permission to have counter as moving 18 inches, avoiding said wreckage.

Given the range of zooming flyers it is best to come in from normal Reserves and ignore the whole mess.

And then the whole argument of "I obviously moved more than 18" from the carrying case to the table" comes up.

Irrelevant as the Model was Deployed, which is not the same as Moving.

Indeed, but i would still point out from the DS rules:

In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, (...)

My reading of English tells me that "further" means they did not move 0" (it applies whether scattered or not). So the fact stays at "not 0" ", but then how much, more than 18"? =P

I do see where you are coming from but there is a reason one of the tenets of this site is warning us against using 'the English language means it must be X' type of statements... the Authors have been shown to be fast and loose with the language.

As Deployment does not trigger any Movement related Rules, they have not moved as far as the Rules are concerned.

Again i do not think i agree: they Deployed in reserve. Somehow they made a distance that is from Reserves to Deep Strike location.

I doubt it can ever be quantifiable, but all the wording seems to point toward it being "not 0".

To clear this up, yes I run the Elysian Drop Troops list out of Forgeworlds Imperial Armor #3 2nd Edition and they basically have a "drop pod" assault rule when it comes to Valkyries and it says they arrive by Deepstrike. Just trying to ensure that I could Deep Strike in (or as its described basically coming in hot from the atmosphere aka from above) and declare I am zooming.

JinxDragon wrote:
I do see where you are coming from but there is a reason one of the tenets of this site is warning us against using 'the English language means it must be X' type of statements... the Authors have been shown to be fast and loose with the language.

As Deployment does not trigger any Movement related Rules, they have not moved as far as the Rules are concerned.

May not move any further is not "fast and loose" with language. It is made clear through those rules that they have indeed "moved"

 gmaleron wrote:
To clear this up, yes I run the Elysian Drop Troops list out of Forgeworlds Imperial Armor #3 2nd Edition and they basically have a "drop pod" assault rule when it comes to Valkyries and it says they arrive by Deepstrike. Just trying to ensure that I could Deep Strike in (or as its described basically coming in hot from the atmosphere aka from above) and declare I am zooming.

As you can see from previous posts, we have no way of knowing if they moved more than 18" or less. Therefore if you arrive and Zoom, be ready to roll a 4+ to decide whether the Valkyrie crashes or not

 BlackTalos wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
To clear this up, yes I run the Elysian Drop Troops list out of Forgeworlds Imperial Armor #3 2nd Edition and they basically have a "drop pod" assault rule when it comes to Valkyries and it says they arrive by Deepstrike. Just trying to ensure that I could Deep Strike in (or as its described basically coming in hot from the atmosphere aka from above) and declare I am zooming.

As you can see from previous posts, we have no way of knowing if they moved more than 18" or less. Therefore if you arrive and Zoom, be ready to roll a 4+ to decide whether the Valkyrie crashes or not

Really? It's safe to assume that they've moved more than 18" if they've a) teleported huge distances or b) flown in from the atmosphere.

Oh i fully agree, playing an Avenger Strike Fighter (warhammer's A10) i can very thematically have it arrive at full speed for a strafing run! I also assume more than 18" myself if i do Deep Strike, simply because the Avenger has Supersonic, no "Hover", and the Deep Strike special rule: I find it extremely hard for such an obsolete rule to exist if it just Crashed at every attempt to use it...

Unfortunately that is not "Rules", and in this specific forum and post, we must abide by what is written in the Rulebook. It does not state "more than 18" when DS", so there is really no way to know...

Would it also be reasonable to assume that if by simply using a model, one interpretation of the rule would mean that it is simply removed from play, that the other is more likely to be valid?

Not really, because you can always Voluntarily embark a Relic on a Zooming flyer. With similar consequences...

Fragile:
If deep-striking is movement why would "count's as" clause be required at all?
Why would that clause trigger during the Shooting Phase, and not simply states 'counts as having Moved' which would of covered all phases?
Why would the Deep-Strike rules tell us to deploy the Models instead of stating to Move them into the position?
All of these choices are very strange if the Authors intended for Deep-striking to be actual Movement....

Tigurius:
Fluff is not Rules unless....
Do you have a way to literally teleport these models onto the table?
Do you have a space craft in orbit that you can drop the Models from?
Both of those would be very cool indeed.

Abstract Systems function only within the Rules used to define them:
In this case that system tells us Deep-Striking triggers Movement related Rules during the Shooting Phase, not prior where it would be useful to the Zooming Vehicle....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to point out:
Have any of you written to Forgeworld to see what their official stance on the matter is?

I sort of remember this problem in 6th and someone had done that, then posted the results here. Unlike normal Emails from customer service, it was accepted because Forgeworld provides consistent Rulings via their Email department so we can self-verify the answer. Now I wish I had better recall, so take what I say next with a grain of salt, but I believed it solved the problem by giving Forgeworld related Deep-striking Flyers permission to ignore that Rule for the turn the Flyer Deep-striked. While the removal of this Rule from vanilla Flyers at the start of 6th spoke volumes for Game Workshop stance on the matter, such Emails showed Forge-world intent and those Emails are just as good as Errata.

JinxDragon wrote:
Tigurius:
Fluff is not Rules unless....
Do you have a way to literally teleport these models onto the table?
Do you have a space craft in orbit that you can drop the Models from?
Both of those would be very cool indeed.

Yes... Yes I do :/

I know fluff isn't supposed to influence rules, but it helps to imply how the rules were intended. It's constantly criticised that GW rules aren't water tight by any means, so a pinch of salt and some RAI it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Not really, because you can always Voluntarily embark a Relic on a Zooming flyer. With similar consequences...

Yeah, but that's something silly you would choose to do, rather than it being the only way the model is used.

I wrote Forgeworld to clear this up they gave me the answer. Basically it's based off the old 6th edition rules where a flyer that Deep Strikes in you can declare it zooming or hovering and if it comes in hovering any squad embarked upon it may disembark. Other than that it follows the same rules for deep striking found in the new rule book.

 gmaleron wrote:
I wrote Forgeworld to clear this up they gave me the answer. Basically it's based off the old 6th edition rules where a flyer that Deep Strikes in you can declare it zooming or hovering and if it comes in hovering any squad embarked upon it may disembark. Other than that it follows the same rules for deep striking found in the new rule book.

Being able to declare Hover / Zooming (as it was in 6th) does not help for the issue of Crashing when Zooming. As your original question was about being able to Hover/Zoom and that choice, the matter is indeed settled.

I will however email them myself to clear up my opinion on Zooming via Deep Strike and Crashing. Just pointing out that this specific issue is still there if you choose to Zoom


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaand they replied quite unexpectedly:

my email wrote:So here is my question:
Does the Avenger automatically crash upon Deep Striking? Why does it have that rule then? If not, how do I prove it moved 18”?

Forgeworld wrote:Thank you for your email. When a flyer arrives by Deeps Strike if it was the Hover option you must declare whether it is Zooming or Hovering before it arrives. If Zooming it counts as having moved 18 inches that turn. Whatever mode is chosen the flyer may not move any further that turn.

I warned others in posting emails, so this is simply to say i got my own answer.

I'm posting because i feel quite unhappy about the "This is how it works: because we say so".

I guess that's how forgeworld works? :

Game Workshop has taken the 'because we say so' approach to some of their Frequently Asked Questions before, so no surprise there.

At least it is settled:
Forgeworld Deep Striking Flyers count as moving 18 inches during the Movement Phase.

I would not take an email (to me) as RaW (to you), but indeed i personally find it settled :p

True, but given that ForgeWorld has a reputation of providing fast and consistent replies through Emails I tend to take those at face value over anything Game Workshop emails out.