Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Tank Cmdr w/ LR Pun, Hvy Bolt Spon, & Pask - 230

3 Vet Sqds w/ 9 Meltas & 3 Chimeras - 465

2 Vet Sqds w/ 6 Plasmas & 2 Chimeras - 340

Hydra Flak Battery - 75

2 LRBT - 300

2 LRBT - 300

Vendetta Gunship - 170

Hellhound w/ Multimelta - 135

I mostly go up against Nids, DA, & Orks. Though I've been doing well with this list, I was informed it is garbage. What can I do to improve it? What should I add/subtract? Any and all advice is appreciated. Thank you.

Pask needs a buddy leman Russ, with pasks' current set up an eradicator maybe best fit give it bolters and you have 20 points to spare if you trade in one lrbt.

The "Buddy" is there just to take hits?

 PuddlePirate wrote:
The "Buddy" is there just to take hits?

Its a requirement for a tank commander under tank commander.

 Desubot wrote:

 PuddlePirate wrote:
The "Buddy" is there just to take hits?

Its a requirement for a tank commander under tank commander.

The Tank Commander rule states that he has to lead a tank squadron, yes, but the unit composisition for a tank squadron is 1-3 tanks. 1 tank is acceptable.

 PuddlePirate wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 PuddlePirate wrote:
The "Buddy" is there just to take hits?

Its a requirement for a tank commander under tank commander.

The Tank Commander rule states that he has to lead a tank squadron, yes, but the unit composisition for a tank squadron is 1-3 tanks. 1 tank is acceptable.

The Tank commander's squadron MUST include 1-2 OTHER Lemon. under options second point

ah just saw it on pg 92 *facepalm*

The LRBT has been slowly beaten down the last 2 editions and especially with the new IG codex.

Losing Lumbering Behemoth (making it snap shot even the single Heavy Bolter) was the start. The abundance of cover saves and invulnerable save modification mechanics was the next. Now that several other Leman Russes are cheaper, it's the nail in the coffin. The same goes for the mighty Demolisher (which is even MOAR expensive now).

If you're taking Pask, it's very handy to use Executioners as squad-mates. His PE(codex) allows them to (arguably) re-roll their Gets Hot! rolls on the Plasma Cannons, removing the only real negative aspect of taking one, especially with PC sponsons.

As far as the Heavy Support slots are concerned:

Punishers (now that they're cheaper) have become very effective, even if they're not at BS4 or Rending. 3x Heavy Bolters gives you a boatload of S5 shots (don't need AP3 when you're forcing 15-20 saves on that MEQ squad, especially if they would have had 4+ cover anyway).
Eradicators are basically Hellhounds on AV14 with the option to take 2 extra Heavy Bolters (for a very reasonable cost), and the ability to fire everything at full BS.
Some people also like to use the Exterminator as a poor man's AA mount, but I'm not sure about that one. You've got a Hydra and Vendetta anyway, so you're golden.

Also, the Heavy Stubber is now a measly 5 points for an extra 3 S4 AP6 shots at 36". I stick them on my Chimeras (I run them as ML + HHF) because even 3x S4 snap shots for 5 points is a steal. Ditto for the Punisher/Eradicator, except now you're shooting at full BS too. 33 shots from a single vehicle is just fun.

I'm also warming up to putting Carapace on my Veterans (esp. the ones with Plasma) since it's half the price it used to be in the previous codex.

Lastly, if you haven't tried Wyvern, they are truly impressive. Two will run you less than a LRBT and put down 8x S4 AP6 small blast, barrage, re-rolling misses, re-rolling wounds, and ignoring cover. They're the new 'Vendetta' from the 5th Codex in terms of undercosting and they absolutely murder Orks/Nids. So much so that you may feel dirty using them.

DoW

If the list is working for you then whoever said it was garbage is an asshat. I find that those who said a list sucks but never offers advice with it have no clue what they are talking about and just need to feel better about themselves.

As far as tweeking the list. I love deathstrtikes, ratlings and other units that throw off peoples stratagies. And make them go. 'Hold on i need to rethink this'.

Fill out your tank commander squad. Drop one of the lrbt squad move in a deathstrike or manticore(the better of the two but not as much fun) and most of course add a wyvren.

The list unfortunately is not very efficient and certainly not viable for competitive play. Whether it is garbage depends on what you want from it. If you're happy with the way it plays (other than it being illegal) then largely keep it the same. DoW has given some good advice and I'll add to that:

Pask wants multimelta sponson and a lascannon. With Rending on the Punisher he is ludicrously good at killing tanks and heavy infantry. The MMs and LC support that better than heavy bolters. You want to kill hordes take Wyverns (or normal Punishers).

Executioner is one of the best variants now as it went down a whopping 40 points with the Sponsons going down another 10! It is brilliant with Pask as PE gives it rerolls on Gets Hot!, scatter and wounds of a 1. Basically better than twin linking it. It also dovetails well with Pask if you need that big 2+ save unit gone they can fire together and kill it dead or use the Orders and murderise a tank with Pask whilst putting 5 S7 Ap2 twinlinked blasts on something else .

Vets are fine though Tauroxes are generally better than Chineras as they have more fire points can be used more aggressively due to reroll DT and are cheaper. Though the Chimera is still good due to higher front armour ability to target 4 different units and the ability to carry ICs with the Vets. As you have no ICs my advice is the Taurox suits this list better.

Points are wrong on the Hydra and a single Hydra is pretty much worthless unless you play against skimmers a lot. I say skimmers because it is effectively useless against flyers. Side armour 10 and open topped with no interceptor means the Hydra invariably dies to what ever flyers your opponent brings on before it ever gets a chance to shoot them.

As discussed by DoW the LRBT is the worst variant now (other than the Demolisher). With how cheap the sponsons are along with points drops in the other variants I woukd consider swapping out for Punishers, Eradicators, Executioners or Exterminators. If there are a lot of Russes and Knights in your meta the Vanquisher is also fairly solid now.

However you can take Russes in HQ and in HS you have Wyverns which are just flat broken. 3 of them is just 195 points and with 12 blasts rerolling to hit and to wound you should reasonably expect to put about 30 wounds on a unit. Which basically kills a 200+ point unit of Orks or Gaunts. It also kills a tac squad (generally also around the 200 point mark) and 30 armour saves will also kill on average 5 terminators which again run over 200 points. Which means your 195 point unit pretty much earns its points back every time it fires. Which is just dumb. Not even Broadsides are that efficient.

 DogOfWar wrote:
The LRBT has been slowly beaten down the last 2 editions and especially with the new IG codex.

Losing Lumbering Behemoth (making it snap shot even the single Heavy Bolter) was the start. The abundance of cover saves and invulnerable save modification mechanics was the next. Now that several other Leman Russes are cheaper, it's the nail in the coffin. The same goes for the mighty Demolisher (which is even MOAR expensive now).

If you're taking Pask, it's very handy to use Executioners as squad-mates. His PE(codex) allows them to (arguably) re-roll their Gets Hot! rolls on the Plasma Cannons, removing the only real negative aspect of taking one, especially with PC sponsons.

As far as the Heavy Support slots are concerned:

Punishers (now that they're cheaper) have become very effective, even if they're not at BS4 or Rending. 3x Heavy Bolters gives you a boatload of S5 shots (don't need AP3 when you're forcing 15-20 saves on that MEQ squad, especially if they would have had 4+ cover anyway).
Eradicators are basically Hellhounds on AV14 with the option to take 2 extra Heavy Bolters (for a very reasonable cost), and the ability to fire everything at full BS.
Some people also like to use the Exterminator as a poor man's AA mount, but I'm not sure about that one. You've got a Hydra and Vendetta anyway, so you're golden.

Also, the Heavy Stubber is now a measly 5 points for an extra 3 S4 AP6 shots at 36". I stick them on my Chimeras (I run them as ML + HHF) because even 3x S4 snap shots for 5 points is a steal. Ditto for the Punisher/Eradicator, except now you're shooting at full BS too. 33 shots from a single vehicle is just fun.

I'm also warming up to putting Carapace on my Veterans (esp. the ones with Plasma) since it's half the price it used to be in the previous codex.

Lastly, if you haven't tried Wyvern, they are truly impressive. Two will run you less than a LRBT and put down 8x S4 AP6 small blast, barrage, re-rolling misses, re-rolling wounds, and ignoring cover. They're the new 'Vendetta' from the 5th Codex in terms of undercosting and they absolutely murder Orks/Nids. So much so that you may feel dirty using them.

DoW

As for punishers, in the past i ran 3 but i sold 2 about a year ago not realising the IG codex was comming out. So now i have to repurchase some of go ebay hunting.

The stubbers i totally agree, ive gone into my bit box and dug them out but have yet to attach any of them (dont want to ruin my paintjobs).

I have a few Scouts squads I've converted into vets in carapace but i find i realy dont need the extra armor when I'm in Chimeras (mobile bunkers and all).

Wyverns are great, though i am somewhat bitter because i have a dozen mortar sqds that are garbage compared to that thing. Still I wont be getting them mainly because of price and honestly to me their ugly as sin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shockwave33 wrote:
If the list is working for you then whoever said it was garbage is an asshat. I find that those who said a list sucks but never offers advice with it have no clue what they are talking about and just need to feel better about themselves.

As far as tweeking the list. I love deathstrtikes, ratlings and other units that throw off peoples stratagies. And make them go. 'Hold on i need to rethink this'.

Fill out your tank commander squad. Drop one of the lrbt squad move in a deathstrike or manticore(the better of the two but not as much fun) and most of course add a wyvren.

Yeah it was some dude who just blew up on me out of nowhere, he probably has issues or something. I agree the deathstrike is cool as all hell and has only gotten better, but I feel its a waste of a good heavy slot. As for ratlings, i am a firm believer in "burn the heretic purge the unclean kill the mutant," so no ab-humans for me lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:
The list unfortunately is not very efficient and certainly not viable for competitive play. Whether it is garbage depends on what you want from it. If you're happy with the way it plays (other than it being illegal) then largely keep it the same. DoW has given some good advice and I'll add to that:

Pask wants multimelta sponson and a lascannon. With Rending on the Punisher he is ludicrously good at killing tanks and heavy infantry. The MMs and LC support that better than heavy bolters. You want to kill hordes take Wyverns (or normal Punishers).

Executioner is one of the best variants now as it went down a whopping 40 points with the Sponsons going down another 10! It is brilliant with Pask as PE gives it rerolls on Gets Hot!, scatter and wounds of a 1. Basically better than twin linking it. It also dovetails well with Pask if you need that big 2+ save unit gone they can fire together and kill it dead or use the Orders and murderise a tank with Pask whilst putting 5 S7 Ap2 twinlinked blasts on something else .

Vets are fine though Tauroxes are generally better than Chineras as they have more fire points can be used more aggressively due to reroll DT and are cheaper. Though the Chimera is still good due to higher front armour ability to target 4 different units and the ability to carry ICs with the Vets. As you have no ICs my advice is the Taurox suits this list better.

Points are wrong on the Hydra and a single Hydra is pretty much worthless unless you play against skimmers a lot. I say skimmers because it is effectively useless against flyers. Side armour 10 and open topped with no interceptor means the Hydra invariably dies to what ever flyers your opponent brings on before it ever gets a chance to shoot them.

As discussed by DoW the LRBT is the worst variant now (other than the Demolisher). With how cheap the sponsons are along with points drops in the other variants I woukd consider swapping out for Punishers, Eradicators, Executioners or Exterminators. If there are a lot of Russes and Knights in your meta the Vanquisher is also fairly solid now.

However you can take Russes in HQ and in HS you have Wyverns which are just flat broken. 3 of them is just 195 points and with 12 blasts rerolling to hit and to wound you should reasonably expect to put about 30 wounds on a unit. Which basically kills a 200+ point unit of Orks or Gaunts. It also kills a tac squad (generally also around the 200 point mark) and 30 armour saves will also kill on average 5 terminators which again run over 200 points. Which means your 195 point unit pretty much earns its points back every time it fires. Which is just dumb. Not even Broadsides are that efficient.

So the perfered enemy allows pask to reroll the "gets hot" checks? I thought because they weren't to hit rolls you can re-roll them?

 PuddlePirate wrote:


As for punishers, in the past i ran 3 but i sold 2 about a year ago not realising the IG codex was comming out. So now i have to repurchase some of go ebay hunting.

The stubbers i totally agree, ive gone into my bit box and dug them out but have yet to attach any of them (dont want to ruin my paintjobs).

I have a few Scouts squads I've converted into vets in carapace but i find i realy dont need the extra armor when I'm in Chimeras (mobile bunkers and all).

Wyverns are great, though i am somewhat bitter because i have a dozen mortar sqds that are garbage compared to that thing. Still I wont be getting them mainly because of price and honestly to me their ugly as sin.

Scratchbuild, scratchbuild, scratchbuild, my friend!

Punishers are easily made with some small metal/plastic tubes and plasticard/bitz. Magnetize the Leman Russ barrels/sponsons and you can switch out your loadout to whatever you want.

The reason for the carapace on Vets in Chimeras is for when they either have a Gets Hot! wound (and they will...) you've got a 50/50 shot of saving him (rather than a 1/3 chance). That, or if their transport gets exploded. Plus now you get a save against bolters in the open.

I actually agree on the look of the Wyvern model, so I took the Multiple Rocket Pods from my Valkyrie kit and magnetized them to a turret piece I found from a company called Old Crow. Looks infinitely better imo, and so long as your opponent knows what it is, you're golden.

It seems that you're very dedicated to WYSIWYG, which is admirable, but I wouldn't worry too much unless you're going to a lot of very official tournaments. If so, good on you, but 99% of the time people will be happier seeing a good scratchbuild than glad you forked out the cash for the official Wyvern/Punisher/Cadian w/Carapace model.

DoW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, you can re-roll your Gets Hot! rolls with a blast weapon (even though it doesn't roll to hit). The rulebook actually specifically mentions it in the "Gets Hot! and re-rolls" section.

The only point of contention is with Preferred Enemy rule specifically. Some argue that because it allows re-rolls of s only (and specifies the To Hit roll), it doesn't RAW allow you to re-roll Gets Hot!. The general consensus seems to be that the RAI is to allow you to re-roll your Gets Hot! but that's certainly something you can discuss with your opponent.

If you have a reroll to hit you can reroll gets hot and the scatter on blasts. Rerolling 1s to hit is certainly rerolling (if you count rerolling misses to hit and if not then nothing qualifies for the rule). So yes Pask gives his Executioner mate a reroll on Gets Hot!, and a full reroll on the scatter. Plus obviously rerolls 1 to wound.

To add to what's been said Manticores are pretty poor now (went up in points when most other HS got a lot better 7th Ed damage table has made them poor AT and the Wyvern is mikes better at AI leaving it with no clear role to fulfill). Deathstrikes are pretty effective and with list building in 7th you need never be shy of a HS slot.

 FlingitNow wrote:
If you have a reroll to hit you can reroll gets hot and the scatter on blasts. Rerolling 1s to hit is certainly rerolling (if you count rerolling misses to hit and if not then nothing qualifies for the rule). So yes Pask gives his Executioner mate a reroll on Gets Hot!, and a full reroll on the scatter. Plus obviously rerolls 1 to wound.

To add to what's been said Manticores are pretty poor now (went up in points when most other HS got a lot better 7th Ed damage table has made them poor AT and the Wyvern is mikes better at AI leaving it with no clear role to fulfill). Deathstrikes are pretty effective and with list building in 7th you need never be shy of a HS slot.

But because the plasma cannon is a template weapon the rules state that you roll the gets hot dice seperatly and before rolling to scatter, so because it's not a to hit roll wouldn't that mean you can reroll it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogOfWar wrote:

 PuddlePirate wrote:


As for punishers, in the past i ran 3 but i sold 2 about a year ago not realising the IG codex was comming out. So now i have to repurchase some of go ebay hunting.

The stubbers i totally agree, ive gone into my bit box and dug them out but have yet to attach any of them (dont want to ruin my paintjobs).

I have a few Scouts squads I've converted into vets in carapace but i find i realy dont need the extra armor when I'm in Chimeras (mobile bunkers and all).

Wyverns are great, though i am somewhat bitter because i have a dozen mortar sqds that are garbage compared to that thing. Still I wont be getting them mainly because of price and honestly to me their ugly as sin.

Scratchbuild, scratchbuild, scratchbuild, my friend!

Punishers are easily made with some small metal/plastic tubes and plasticard/bitz. Magnetize the Leman Russ barrels/sponsons and you can switch out your loadout to whatever you want.

The reason for the carapace on Vets in Chimeras is for when they either have a Gets Hot! wound (and they will...) you've got a 50/50 shot of saving him (rather than a 1/3 chance). That, or if their transport gets exploded. Plus now you get a save against bolters in the open.

I actually agree on the look of the Wyvern model, so I took the Multiple Rocket Pods from my Valkyrie kit and magnetized them to a turret piece I found from a company called Old Crow. Looks infinitely better imo, and so long as your opponent knows what it is, you're golden.

It seems that you're very dedicated to WYSIWYG, which is admirable, but I wouldn't worry too much unless you're going to a lot of very official tournaments. If so, good on you, but 99% of the time people will be happier seeing a good scratchbuild than glad you forked out the cash for the official Wyvern/Punisher/Cadian w/Carapace model.

DoW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, you can re-roll your Gets Hot! rolls with a blast weapon (even though it doesn't roll to hit). The rulebook actually specifically mentions it in the "Gets Hot! and re-rolls" section.

The only point of contention is with Preferred Enemy rule specifically. Some argue that because it allows re-rolls of s only (and specifies the To Hit roll), it doesn't RAW allow you to re-roll Gets Hot!. The general consensus seems to be that the RAI is to allow you to re-roll your Gets Hot! but that's certainly something you can discuss with your opponent.

I tried looking up the website but I cant seem to find the webstore. Would you mind linking me to where you found the turret?

http://web.archive.org/web/20081020164841/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25turrets.htm

I use the Tank Turrets for my Chimerae (built-in Heavy Stubber!) and the Tac Missile Turret for Manticore/Hydra/Wyvern conversions.

Not exactly sure how the store is working nowadays but I think you can still order from them. If not, I'm sorry, it's been probably 3 years since I bought something from them.

DoW

But because the plasma cannon is a template weapon the rules state that you roll the gets hot dice seperatly and before rolling to scatter, so because it's not a to hit roll wouldn't that mean you can reroll it?

Did you even read my post. I answered this question directly in it. You get a reroll to hit you therefore get a reroll on Gets Hot! for blasts as described in the Gets Hot! rule. Likewise as it is a blast and you have a reroll to hit you get to reroll the scatter dice.

 FlingitNow wrote:

But because the plasma cannon is a template weapon the rules state that you roll the gets hot dice seperatly and before rolling to scatter, so because it's not a to hit roll wouldn't that mean you can reroll it?

Did you even read my post. I answered this question directly in it. You get a reroll to hit you therefore get a reroll on Gets Hot! for blasts as described in the Gets Hot! rule. Likewise as it is a blast and you have a reroll to hit you get to reroll the scatter dice.

No need to be rude. I have found in the rulebook and am well aware that perffered enemy allows for you reroll the scatter but I have yet to see in the rulebook where it says that PE allows you to reroll the template gets hot. I was simply questioning your information because i have failed to find where it is stated in the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogOfWar wrote:
http://web.archive.org/web/20081020164841/http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25turrets.htm

I use the Tank Turrets for my Chimerae (built-in Heavy Stubber!) and the Tac Missile Turret for Manticore/Hydra/Wyvern conversions.

Not exactly sure how the store is working nowadays but I think you can still order from them. If not, I'm sorry, it's been probably 3 years since I bought something from them.

DoW

Thanks man!

Gets Hot and Re-rolls page 164 in the gets hot rule like I stated.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Gets Hot and Re-rolls page 164 in the gets hot rule like I stated.

I got it now, thank you.

Your list looks good, just a few tweeks as mentioned above, hydra might work better in pairs. And don't count on getting to reroll blast weapons with preferred enemy.
The rule says you can reroll hit rolls of one with Preffered enemy, no hit rolls are made with blast weapons. (Yes you can reroll the gets hot roll), but preferred enemy does not twin link blast weapons.
I wish it were true though, I run Pask with 2 EXE sidekicks.

Tsilber wrote:
Your list looks good, just a few tweeks as mentioned above, hydra might work better in pairs. And don't count on getting to reroll blast weapons with preferred enemy.
The rule says you can reroll hit rolls of one with Preffered enemy, no hit rolls are made with blast weapons. (Yes you can reroll the gets hot roll), but preferred enemy does not twin link blast weapons.
I wish it were true though, I run Pask with 2 EXE sidekicks.

So maybe take out the hellhound for more hydras? From what I've heard outside of the forum, the hellound simple isn't worth taking.

The rule says you can reroll hit rolls of one with Preffered enemy, no hit rolls are made with blast weapons. (Yes you can reroll the gets hot roll), but preferred enemy does not twin link blast weapons. 
I wish it were true though, I run Pask with 2 EXE sidekicks. 

Lets apply that logic to prescience:

The rule says you can reroll hit rolls that missed with prescience, no hit rolls are made with blast weapons. (Yes you can reroll the gets hot roll). 
I wish it were true though, I run Pask with 2 EXE sidekicks. 

Or you know we could just follow the rules on page 158 under Blast Weapons and Re-rolls...

Cmon, you are stretching pretty far on that one. You know thats not how it works and you're arguing the metaphysical subtleties in the wording...
We can read the rules and imply both sides, but you know deep inside it doesn't work like that. Preferred enemy does not twin link "gets hot" blast weapons. Ill check around maybe ATC, NOVA, and others will allow it /shrug.

But back to the list and topic, we can debate if it works on another thread LOL.