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I'm in the midst of building and converting some LOTD, and so far have a full-melta setup. Combi-melta, Multi-Melta and Meltagun.

The question is, I still have 5 to build, and I'm wondering where I go from there.

Option 1: Build them as stock LOTD, take the full squad of 10
I'm not sold on this, to be honest. Ignores Cover Bolters are nice, as is the 3++, but I'm not sure if it's 25ppm nice.

Option 2: Build another squad, with all-flamer setup (combi+normal+heavy)
Acts as the anti-infantry version of the melta squad, using precision DS to land and flame good targets. Less ablative wound, but maybe less dead weight in bolter LOTD.

Option 3: Plasma all round
Again, not sure, I have AP2 covered in a lot of other units and see very few 2+ units in my area. Melta flat-out beats it for AT, it's only anti-MC that I can see this being useful.

Option 4: Forget a second squad, build a HF, Flamer, comb-X, PG and PC marines. Only take 1 squad and swap in/out weapons.
Might be a good idea, I don't know how much mileage there is in using 2 LOTD squads. I think this could be the way to go.

Any thoughts appreciated. Also, could someone give me a quick rundown of how the LOTD codex works in regard to allies? Does it take a normal slot or not, and can it be run with Inquisition allies as well?

Thanks.

Option 5 - Moar Melta! Reason? A poor round of shooting could result in 1 or 2 hits. Faced against something AV14, might only be a hull point or two especially considering that it takes a bit more to kill a vehicle in 7th. Personally, I'd poor a little more into the melta department just to make sure.

Alternatively - I think plasma could be the way to go. I just don't think flamers are worth it to be honest, considering the LoTD ignore cover anyway.

Multimelta, plasmagun, combi-grav is a good anti-mc build with the relentless and ignores cover rules.

I wouldn't go flamers - what are you paying points for ignores cover for if you are just going to use templates?

 Tigurius wrote:
Option 5 - Moar Melta! Reason? A poor round of shooting could result in 1 or 2 hits. Faced against something AV14, might only be a hull point or two especially considering that it takes a bit more to kill a vehicle in 7th. Personally, I'd poor a little more into the melta department just to make sure

Hadn't considered that, to be honest. I don't have parts to make another MM, though, so I'd be stuck with just a combi-melta and meltagun, which might not be enough. I also rarely see more than 1 AV14 vehicle round here,and even then, I'm the only one that runs Land Raiders. Everything else I see has at least one side that is AV11 at best. It's mostly Russes, Cron tanks and Tau vehicles that I'd be using them on. I think in general, and considering I have podding melta elsewhere in most lists, 1 LOTD melta squad would cover it.

Alternatively - I think plasma could be the way to go. I just don't think flamers are worth it to be honest, considering the LoTD ignore cover anyway.

I was thinking the Ignores Cover on the bolters would actually work nicely with the Flamers, and I see a lot of infantry so being able to precision drop multiple templates would be helpful. The thing with plasma is it's less good at dedicated anti-tank, and not as good as flamers against hordes. I tend to run fairly generalist Tactical Squads so I was envisioning the LOTD as specialised anti-infantry and anti-tank units. That said, it could have some good utility with killing MCs and mid-AV vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Multimelta, plasmagun, combi-grav is a good anti-mc build with the relentless and ignores cover rules.

I wouldn't go flamers - what are you paying points for ignores cover for if you are just going to use templates?

Strikes me as a little mixed up, I prefer to match weapons in a squad. I can see that being useful, but I don't have a MM spare at the moment.

With the flamers, I was paying for the templates that I find useful rather than the Ignores Cover. I see a lot of infantry, and being able to spam wounds is something flamers in multiples do better than most.

It is mixed up, and usually I prefer to match weapons too. But higher rof, with high st, low ap, is the best against mcs - the best anti-mc heavy weapon avaliable to LotD is arguably the mm, the best anti-mc spec weapon avaliable to LotD is plasma, whilst the best combi weapon is grav.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the mm, and grav take advantage of relentless. The plasma gun too if you want to charge in later turns.

Your know your list best Para; your logic is sound enough.

I’d probably go with more melta or plasma.

You are paying a premium for the 3++. Most hordes aren’t spamming AP2-3 stuff, so if you want to thin them out, drop a pod full of tactical or assault marines next to them and get the job done. A horde is just going to pump you full of small arms fire or assault you. You want the LotD to land next to something nasty and take it out. Those things are more likely to have either an armor value or a 2+ save.

There are a lot of ways of dealing with hordes in our codex. There are fewer scalpels for taking out hard targets. While I’m sure you could get good use out of a flamer LotD squad, and would look very cool and fluffy doing it, it’s the opportunity cost of not gearing them up for hard targets that bothers me.

I think you can't go wrong with another full Melta squad. For the points, the LOTD squads are great melta delivery systems. As others stated, i would stay away from flamer templates. Ignores Cover is HUGE with the advent of Necron AV 13 spam that is currently popular, along with the always-survivable holofield jinking Wave Serpents. Both of these things will still wilt to melta, and you have two chances per unit to drop in "danger close" to pop them.

Looks like melta it is then. I'll have to find some way of converting another MM.
Thanks all.

Whilst I completely agree that cover ignoring melta and relentless on a mm is #1 choice, I decided to do a bit of maths on the mc killing potential of the mm/plasma/combi-grav loadout.
This is based on being within 12", which shouldn't be too difficult with LotD deepstrike rule. Obviously little point in looking at output against demons due to their low armour + invuln save.

T6 2+ (Riptide/tyranid heavy hitter whos name I've temporarily forgotten):
Mm hits 2/3 of the time, wounds 5/6 of the time. Average of 5/9 of a wound.
Plasma hits 2/3, wounds 2/3, 4/9 of a wound x 2 (shots). Average of 8/9 of a wound.
Combi grav, 2/3 and 5/6. 5/9 x3. 15/9 of a wound.
Totals: 28/9 or 3 and a 1/9 wounds on average.

T6 3+ (carnifex and the like):
Mm, 2/3 and 5/6. 5/9 of a wound.
Plasma, 2/3 and 2/3. 4/9 x 2. 8/9 of a wound.
Combi grav, 2/3 and 2/3. 4/9 x3. 12/9 of a wound.
Totals: 25/9 or 2 and 7/9 of a wound.

T5 4+ (grounded harpy/crone)
Mm, 2/3 and 5/6. 5/9 of a wound.
Plasma, 2/3 and 5/6. 5/9 x2. 10/9 of a wound.
Combi grav, 2/3 and 1/2. 1/3 x3. 3/3 of a wound.
Total: 24/9 of a wound or 2 and 2/3 of a wound.

T8 3+ (wraithlord/wraithknight)
Mm, 2/3 and 1/2. 1/3 of a wound.
Plasma, 2/3 and 1/3. 2/9 x2. 4/9 of a wound.
Combi grav, 2/3 and 2/3. 4/9 x3 12/9 of a wound.
Total: 19/9 or 2 and 1/9 of a wound.

Lastly T5 2+ (cents aren't mcs but wanted to see these too)
Mm, 2/3 and 5/6. 5/9 of a wound.
Plasma, 2/3 and 5/6. 5/9 x2. 10/9 of a wound.
Combi grav, 2/3 and 5/6. 5/9 x3. 15/9 of a wound.
Total: 30/9 or 3 and 1/3 of a wound.

So as expected with all weapons being ap2 and grav being involved, riptides suffer the most. 2 squads equipped as such will eliminate a riptide in one phase (on average). Tbf even one squad clocking in at 160pts is good value for points taking just over 3 wounds off a riptide.
Of course after the initial volly, the damage output decreases significantly due to the combi grav being used. But you still then have a nice unit with a 3++, ignores cover, relentless, fearless, 2 attacks and still having a plasmagun and multimelta. This applies to all loadouts, just wanted to say how nice any LotD unit is.

And there's some Maths too Para.

Melted rather than crispy. It's the way to go!

Poly Ranger wrote:
Whilst I completely agree that cover ignoring melta and relentless on a mm is #1 choice, I decided to do a bit of maths on the mc killing potential of the mm/plasma/combi-grav loadout.
This is based on being within 12", which shouldn't be too difficult with LotD deepstrike rule. Obviously little point in looking at output against demons due to their low armour + invuln save.

-- Sums ---

So as expected with all weapons being ap2 and grav being involved, riptides suffer the most. 2 squads equipped as such will eliminate a riptide in one phase (on average). Tbf even one squad clocking in at 160pts is good value for points taking just over 3 wounds off a riptide.
Of course after the initial volly, the damage output decreases significantly due to the combi grav being used. But you still then have a nice unit with a 3++, ignores cover, relentless, fearless, 2 attacks and still having a plasmagun and multimelta. This applies to all loadouts, just wanted to say how nice any LotD unit is.

Interesting. I'm not sure I'd go for it simply because from an aesthetic POV of having the mixed weapons, but there's certainly mileage to the idea for a tailored anti-MC unit. Funny enough, I tend to forget Grav weapons exist, I've always seen either plasma or melta doing their job better on anything other than bikes or Cents, which I don't use.

So I think I'm going melta-MM-CM for now, but I'll probably playtest both a little before busting out the GS and knife for the second squad.

Grav and Plasma guns are pretty much interchangeable. There are some times where one is better, other times it’s the second one. Plasma is more reliable (ironically) where grav guns have a lot of variables to worry about: Movement, armor value, etc.

But when you fix one of those variables into the “good” option, grav guns look a LOT better. Salvo 2/3 might be similar to rapid fire, but for things that count as stationary (relentless and S&P) getting full shots at max range is a big deal.