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Does Snikrot's shrouded/stealth abilities counter the fact that you cant assault when your arrive from reserves?

Do you include burnas in the unit? I thought maybe having the burnas (power weapons), klaw (awesome sauce) and the morks teeth (rending, high strength) would be a slight variety in weapon types and diversiy the source of damage output. you can be a force against MEQ, higher toughness targets and TEQ units. Also you can at least flame a unit when you arrive potentially!

Would you add a mek with klaw/killsaw?

Whats the maximum points the unit should be in a standard 1500 list? Does a 250 unit of kommandos sound like too much of an investment in a SOMEWHAT one trick pony? or is their ability to disrupt and force decisions on the opponent worth it?

These are questions I have been asking myself for the past couple days as I have been converting some kommandos from regular boyz because I don't like the model (I do LOVE the kommando nob model though).

A full unit of kommandos, a nob with BP and Klaw, 2 burnas and snikrot = 280 points. Can the unit be 10 plus nob and snikrot and still be effective.

Thanks for your useful insight!

-Sal

I think it would be.

I haven't tried it out yet, but im planning on Boss with Klaw, Two Burnas and in bigger games adding Snikky to the mix.


Even just having a Klaw and two Orks with power weapons turn up in the enemies deployment is going to cause heart attacks..

See I would think snirot would be an automatic if you include kommandos in any decent sized game (1500+). In smaller games he probably isn't worth it

I think kommandos have a spot in a horde list, if you take finkin kap and pick strategic warlord and try to get the infiltrate bonus. Or if you take the battle wagon formation and rush up the field.

Orks have a lot of strong ways to close the distance with bikes, koptas,er we go, waaagh, and transports. If you play around with those ideas I bet you could build a list that gets 90%+ of its models into combat turn two or bottom one.

I think they are.

Snikrot got cheaper, like significantly cheaper and now you can take him along with a Nob.

I still think minimal is the way to go with them:

Snikrot
Nob PK BP
4 Kommandoz
2x Burnaz.

175 and can really take back field infantry to task, or deploy in cover T1 and be a pain in the butt that the enemy has to deal with instead of your real hammers.

Snikrot imo is still kinda lack luster. He really needs either a higher strength or a real AP to be worth those points to me, since a single turn of Shrouded rather than Stealth doesnt justify 60pts in my books. I literally only brought him before because i could plop a MANz boss behind enemy lines and freak them out - but they explicitly deny that now (bastards....)

I see Kommandos being in a footslogging army as a frontal "DEAL WITH ME FIRST" kinda unit. They will be ~10" ahead of the rest of the boyz, so they will get the heat first and that bonus cover will help them survive first turn dramatically. If they havent been wiped out or ran off, charge T2 while your boyz keep trekking up the field. By the time the kommandos are dead the rest of your army is knocking on the door. Actually now that i think about it, this should work for a walker list too....hmm....

Then again thats kinda how i play my orks anyway. i always have something that can really be a pain in the butt if you dont deal with it NOW, but its either durable enough to take the heat or cheap enough that i dont give a damn if it dies. Distraction is my game.

Taking the WAAAGH! formation would go a long way towards helping them.

Waaagh ghazkull's red skull kommandos formation would probably be how I take them. They gain outflank and can appear all at once from the reserves table. You gain shrouded (for all intensive purposes) on their 1st turn on top of stealth. That would probably be how I take them. I think that would be the most useful.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snikrot imo is still kinda lack luster. He really needs either a higher strength or a real AP to be worth those points to me, since a single turn of Shrouded rather than Stealth doesnt justify 60pts in my books. I literally only brought him before because i could plop a MANz boss behind enemy lines and freak them out - but they explicitly deny that now (bastards....)

He's not amaze-balls, but he can handily eat challenges for the PK Nob while he gets to bizness.

Anyway, I think the reason you'd take him is for the ability to come on any place, any board edge.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snikrot imo is still kinda lack luster. He really needs either a higher strength or a real AP to be worth those points to me, since a single turn of Shrouded rather than Stealth doesnt justify 60pts in my books. I literally only brought him before because i could plop a MANz boss behind enemy lines and freak them out - but they explicitly deny that now (bastards....)

I see Kommandos being in a footslogging army as a frontal "DEAL WITH ME FIRST" kinda unit. They will be ~10" ahead of the rest of the boyz, so they will get the heat first and that bonus cover will help them survive first turn dramatically. If they havent been wiped out or ran off, charge T2 while your boyz keep trekking up the field. By the time the kommandos are dead the rest of your army is knocking on the door. Actually now that i think about it, this should work for a walker list too....hmm....

Then again thats kinda how i play my orks anyway. i always have something that can really be a pain in the butt if you dont deal with it NOW, but its either durable enough to take the heat or cheap enough that i dont give a damn if it dies. Distraction is my game.

so you would infiltrate them and not come in from reserves? VERY interesting. match that with da finkin cap and getting the infiltrate bonus (hopefully) and that could be VERY deadly and distracting

 MagicMan wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Snikrot imo is still kinda lack luster. He really needs either a higher strength or a real AP to be worth those points to me, since a single turn of Shrouded rather than Stealth doesnt justify 60pts in my books. I literally only brought him before because i could plop a MANz boss behind enemy lines and freak them out - but they explicitly deny that now (bastards....)

He's not amaze-balls, but he can handily eat challenges for the PK Nob while he gets to bizness.

Anyway, I think the reason you'd take him is for the ability to come on any place, any board edge.

I agree, the potential to ruin any edge hugging units is nasty. It gives the unit the flexibility to actually make very effective outflanks. im thinking of using him in my walker list. Either as an infiltrate in your face unit to really apply the pressure from the start as my dreads run straight up the board. Or as the outflank as a real hammer and anvil style force. I can rush with my walkers and whichever table edge they start to cling to is where a nice fat set of kommado's waltz on to really disrupt any pre-decided play style they were trying to use.

Heres the thing about his Ambush though:

What board will have proper cover wherever you come in from, without being so far away from the opponent army you cant charge next turn?

I play with a rather heavy terrain setup and i rarely see a good place for a 6" movement to get in cover unless its a small unit - and ~10 kommandos isnt a threat lol. However i see plenty of ruins to skulk in via Infiltrate for a 3+ cover (ruins do not need 25% coverage anymore).
I would say this is a local meta but it isnt. I have played in 4 different metas, one in northern california one in south korea one here in nebraska another in south dakota. Same damn thing in every single one - terrain in the center, not the edges, except for random trees.

 More Dakka wrote:
I think they are.

Snikrot got cheaper, like significantly cheaper and now you can take him along with a Nob.

I still think minimal is the way to go with them:

Snikrot
Nob PK BP
4 Kommandoz
2x Burnaz.

175 and can really take back field infantry to task, or deploy in cover T1 and be a pain in the butt that the enemy has to deal with instead of your real hammers.

I disagree with you on this one man. Whenever I used snikrot in the past I always took a max squad. I still think that'd be the best way to use them. If your opponent only has to worry about 6 orks in his backfield, that's very easy to deal with. The squad might kill 1 thing, but will probably die in return. If however you bring the full 15 orks, and snikrot, with burnas and PK, that's scary, and now that multi-assaults are back throwing snikrot at one tank, and boyz with grenades at others, then the nob at one more, you have a chance of totally wrecking someone's day. You can really punish players for making parking lots.

The biggest problem with the Kommandos imo is the removal of the unit's ability to charge when it comes on from reserve. The last time I used kommandos was in 5th edition. I didn't play any of 6th, so when I found out about that rule it took me by surprise. Yeah you get shrouded but you can't do the sneak attack with them. Your opponent is gonna have a turn to get ready for your charge or possibly gun them down.

they are very competitive...

esp with snikrot from the waagh codex...

3 units on whatever edge you want is awesome, anyone complaining about no more charge from reserves is stuck in the past a few editions... its not needed, and would make it way OP...

if being shot at for one turn destroys your plan, your plan sucked.

having 45+ guys coming in on any edge of your choice, all in the same turn, with shrouded AND rerolling cover saves is AWESOME... snikrot is also very powerfull now that he has shred he is forcing lots of wounds and can solo many light infantry squads as well as take challenges while your PK nob does his thing. I believe you can also put meks in these units as they are infantry, so add a mek with killsaw to up the character goodness for anti MC and tanks.

that coupled with burnas makes for some scary stuff, and if you are playing right, your opponent will have to choose between shooting the orks who just outflanked with snikrot and can charge turn 3, and the rest of your army which should be charging turn 2... not an easy choice, neither option is good for them!

I will definitely include them in my list. In a 1500 point list I am going to run with snikrot, pk/bp nob, 2 burnas and 10 knife wielding kommandos (13/15 but one upgraded to nob and 2 armed with burnas). thats 250 out of 1500 which is about 17% of my army.

 easysauce wrote:
they are very competitive...

esp with snikrot from the waagh codex...

3 units on whatever edge you want is awesome, anyone complaining about no more charge from reserves is stuck in the past a few editions... its not needed, and would make it way OP...

if being shot at for one turn destroys your plan, your plan sucked.

having 45+ guys coming in on any edge of your choice, all in the same turn, with shrouded AND rerolling cover saves is AWESOME... snikrot is also very powerfull now that he has shred he is forcing lots of wounds and can solo many light infantry squads as well as take challenges while your PK nob does his thing. I believe you can also put meks in these units as they are infantry, so add a mek with killsaw to up the character goodness for anti MC and tanks.

that coupled with burnas makes for some scary stuff, and if you are playing right, your opponent will have to choose between shooting the orks who just outflanked with snikrot and can charge turn 3, and the rest of your army which should be charging turn 2... not an easy choice, neither option is good for them!

its 4 squads of kommandos+snikrot so 60+ models(I put the plus because you can still add things like meks to them, which aren't ICs and will get to tag along for the sneaky ride

As others have said, with the Waaaagh! formation for them, they could be single handedly one of our nastiest units. Not many people can respond to 60ish models just APPEARING beside them. Especially when they haven't finished dealing with the other threats they had been facing prior. Having those extra flame templates due to multiple squads will be harsh for them to handle as well, especially if they are foolish enough to be castled near the edge. Just burn through their foolish mobs.

Even without the formation, I think they have a lot more viability this edition with their point decrease and squad sizes now.

I was thinking of using this formation of 4 squads of commandoes but haven't figured out the best way to take them in a 1500 list yet.

I'm thinking of 2 max squads with rokkits and pk bp nobz and 2 x 5-10 barebonez squads.

The point of not maxing the squads is that i think it's gona be hard to find decent cover for all 60 guyz. Thus, those 2 barebonez squads can be used for screening the big ones! And even if they're in the open, 5+ rerollable ain't that bad when you consider the cost.

 ionusx wrote:
Waaagh ghazkull's red skull kommandos formation would probably be how I take them. They gain outflank and can appear all at once from the reserves table. You gain shrouded (for all intensive purposes) on their 1st turn on top of stealth. That would probably be how I take them. I think that would be the most useful.

Intents and purposes. Argh.

 doktor_g wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
Waaagh ghazkull's red skull kommandos formation would probably be how I take them. They gain outflank and can appear all at once from the reserves table. You gain shrouded (for all intensive purposes) on their 1st turn on top of stealth. That would probably be how I take them. I think that would be the most useful.

Intents and purposes. Argh.

maybe he meant intensive?
as in the turn you arrive is gona be intense, so you get shrouded for this intensive turn?
argh.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but yeh a nice big blob with re-rollable 5+, thats a 5/9 chance of making the save. so even without cover you have a save better than a 4+, combined with some pressure from your main force I think this will be a powerful combo. What im considering;

With a greentide - Having a huge 100 man blob coming from one side and a 60 blob coming from the other. One has a 5++ with FNP; the other has a 5+ cover re-rollable, both equate to a nice 5/9 save. you would simply need some serious volume of shots to remove that kind of sized force.

With a Walker list - Dreads and morkas advancing, high AV rendering any small arms fire ineffective, then the turn those walkers are getting into assault range your kommando's roll on to really disrupt the enemy. Hopefully take down and weaken any AT sat camping backfield (perhaps a heavy weps team behind an aegis or some tougher units like oblits). Then by the time they wipe the kommando's they should be lacking much AT to deal with your walkers

Even without the formation the imfluence on the board edge is amazing for horde lists. In combination with cheaper bikes or stormboyz you can force ver tough decisions on turn one and two.

I haven't had a chance to dive deep into the different formations. From what I've read the red skulls can be quite destructive if used properly!

I really like how..if equipeed with snikrot and a couple of burnas.. they have the ability to be effective against a wide variety of units. They have a couple power weapons, powerklaws, a high strength rending attack and mass basic attacks!

The conversion possibilities really attracted mse to kommandos primarily. I want to have a couple of them holding pictures of tall grass and one holding a picture of a marine..that's their kunnin plan to be sneaky and their best idea of what deception is

Any in game experiences people would like to add to this pool of information we have going? Either disastrous mis-steps.. or epic krumpin's??

There's also the psychological element (How Morky) that your opponent must face when they -know- you are going to have 60+ models show up on a board edge of your choice sometime. They will most likely play to try and avoid it which means spreading out a lot, or keeping away from table edges, and if they are keeping from table edges then they are probably closer to your other orks.

blaktoof wrote:
There's also the psychological element (How Morky) that your opponent must face when they -know- you are going to have 60+ models show up on a board edge of your choice sometime. They will most likely play to try and avoid it which means spreading out a lot, or keeping away from table edges, and if they are keeping from table edges then they are probably closer to your other orks.

This this this, that was the prime reason to take snikrot way back when, and its still a valid reason. However, with the changes in 7th edition to how vehicles move, and with the new ork codex giving us extended reach as well, I'm not sure its needed. Its like you're betting on your opponent to overreact to snikrot. You just have to make sure if you use his unit/formation, that if your opponent doesn't react properly you can punish him for it.

 Sal4m4nd3r wrote:
I haven't had a chance to dive deep into the different formations. From what I've read the red skulls can be quite destructive if used properly!

I really like how..if equipeed with snikrot and a couple of burnas.. they have the ability to be effective against a wide variety of units. They have a couple power weapons, powerklaws, a high strength rending attack and mass basic attacks!

The conversion possibilities really attracted mse to kommandos primarily. I want to have a couple of them holding pictures of tall grass and one holding a picture of a marine..that's their kunnin plan to be sneaky and their best idea of what deception is

Any in game experiences people would like to add to this pool of information we have going? Either disastrous mis-steps.. or epic krumpin's??

My setup gor them is 10 kommandos including a PK nob (with bosspole) 2 rokkits and Snikrot. They can come in behind the enemy and go tank hunting

I've had Snikrot slice up Predator tanks so now with the added PK it should be sweeet

blaktoof wrote:
There's also the psychological element (How Morky) that your opponent must face when they -know- you are going to have 60+ models show up on a board edge of your choice sometime. They will most likely play to try and avoid it which means spreading out a lot, or keeping away from table edges, and if they are keeping from table edges then they are probably closer to your other orks.

Or the gunline can be hugging the border edge to make it impossible for all your 4 units to come from reserves in 1 place so that you'll have to go from the flank and loose all the advantage. I guess it's gona work wonders vs low-model counts and won't be too effective vs a stationary gunline.

 koooaei wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
There's also the psychological element (How Morky) that your opponent must face when they -know- you are going to have 60+ models show up on a board edge of your choice sometime. They will most likely play to try and avoid it which means spreading out a lot, or keeping away from table edges, and if they are keeping from table edges then they are probably closer to your other orks.

Or the gunline can be hugging the border edge to make it impossible for all your 4 units to come from reserves in 1 place so that you'll have to go from the flank and loose all the advantage. I guess it's gona work wonders vs low-model counts and won't be too effective vs a stationary gunline.

but then hopefully if there doing that then you can focus your main force down one side, as if their a gunline spread across the whole back edge then each flank will be out of range of the other, leaving one flank desperately trying to close in as your trukks mercilessly zoom towards those poor lonesome units on the other side. Then as that side begins to break you can bring your kommando's in from the edge they are now trying to leave to really scare the crap out of those conscripts overall I think it puts quite a bit of control and power into your hands the only thing you need to know is how to punish the enemy based on his decisions.

Id really like to see some tactical info build up once people start getting these lists going. As once you tell the opponent 60 models are coming on a board edge at some point then they will already be making decisions based around that and you need to start punishing them the moment they do. Whether thats forcing them into a corner, ignoring half their army and ploughing down one side or sitting back and creating a hammer-anvil attack I dont know, but im sure we can come up with some suitably dirty tactics

You needtorun a Ghaz supplement foc for that formstion right? Or can I have a CAD codex: Orks + the kommando formation?

Its an ork formation, there's no actual requirement to run anything else.

Bound armies are made up of detachments, formations=special detachments.

Theres no restriction on combining ork detachments with ork detachments, so You could do CAD with this.

Or you could run the dreadmob formation with this and that your army, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
There's also the psychological element (How Morky) that your opponent must face when they -know- you are going to have 60+ models show up on a board edge of your choice sometime. They will most likely play to try and avoid it which means spreading out a lot, or keeping away from table edges, and if they are keeping from table edges then they are probably closer to your other orks.

Or the gunline can be hugging the border edge to make it impossible for all your 4 units to come from reserves in 1 place so that you'll have to go from the flank and loose all the advantage. I guess it's gona work wonders vs low-model counts and won't be too effective vs a stationary gunline.

This is possible and would prevent you from coming out in the middle but the kommando formation unlike the other formations that require multiple units is not 1 big unit. This has yet to happen, but if it does I would be more than happy to put half my orks on one end of the enemy and the other half on the other end and pincer them. Or all 4 just on one flank..since if they spread all the way out and stayed spread out im probably only coming up 1 flank with the rest of my army to deny them shooting with all of theirs, might as well have the four squad all show up on their flank