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Both units in question are my skull crushers (just got the book today) vs my friends mournfang. What he immediately pointed out was before adding ensorcelled weps, my models were 15 points more expensive, had one less wound, less attacks, didn't have impact hits, and he has access to some stupid banner that gives him a flaming attack and me always strikes last? Making my units higher initiative invalid as hell waste me on the charge. They're also both special.

Why would games workshop make one unit stronger then the other? To that degree and anyway? I'm still learning so excuse any wrong assumptions or for sounding childish

Andy140491 wrote:
Both units in question are my skull crushers (just got the book today) vs my friends mournfang. What he immediately pointed out was before adding ensorcelled weps, my models were 15 points more expensive, had one less wound, less attacks, didn't have impact hits, and he has access to some stupid banner that gives him a flaming attack and me always strikes last? Making my units higher initiative invalid as hell waste me on the charge. They're also both special.

Why would games workshop make one unit stronger then the other? To that degree and anyway? I'm still learning so excuse any wrong assumptions or for sounding childish

They're similar, but they're still different. They have the same number of wounds, by the way. Each of them has 3.

Skullcrushers have a 1+ armor save base. This is FANTASTIC for staying alive, especially against ranged fire.

Skullcrushers are immune to psychology. Mournfang can panic on leadership 7.

Skullcrusher riders have 3 attacks each at Strength 5. Mournfang riders have 3 attacks each at Strength 4. Mournfang mounts have 4 attacks at Strength 5. Skullcrusher mounts have 3 attacks at Strength 5. When stuck in combat, the Mournfang unit might have one more attack, but 3 of those are at lower strength. Quality over quantity. That extra strength is very impactful when dealing with armor in particular.

On the charge, Skullcrusher mounts have +1 strength. So that's trading some impact hits for higher strength attacks.

Skullcrushers are one of the best units in the game. WoC is one of the best armies in the game, even. As a point of advice, and I mean this with the best of intentions for you to enjoy yourself, don't jump on the 'Imbalanced! GW sucks!' train. I see this all the time in video games, and occasionally in Warhammer as well. If you convince yourself that the game is imbalanced you'll miss out on the good stuff you actually have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and Skullcrushers are Rare, while Mournfang are Special. For the record. And Mournfang are undeniably fantastic units, I'm not trying to downplay that. Skullcrushers are just friggin' awesome too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And while I'm at it, Skullcrushers don't instadie to Purple Sun. That initiative is fantastic even if you can't use it in combat due to the banner thing, which is VERY situational.

I have been playing ogres almost since the start of my gaming and I will never willingly run my mournfang into a fight with skullcrushers even if i am getting the charge. I do EVERYTHING I can to keep my most killy unit away from a grindfest with WoC's best unit.

Grinding against WoC NEVER WORKS. Skullcrushers are amazing.

Brilliant for a second I thought they may have been over costed!

I'm trying not to fall into the trap of thinking units are broken or imbalanced, to be honest I'm trying to tell my friend to not look at point for point costs and look at how it benefits an army. For example he'll say

"A cannon only has to kill X model to do its points work"

To be honest I think the model in question was Nurgle beasts for 60 points. I was saying that they may be cheap but he needs to deal with them first, no matter the points that you use against them, due to them being used to tie up your expensive units. Obviously not your entire army but do you see my point?

Also, Skullcrushers are WS5 while Mournfangs are WS3 (I believe)
They are both very strong choices anyway (like most MC in the game)

Andy140491 wrote:
Brilliant for a second I thought they may have been over costed!

I'm trying not to fall into the trap of thinking units are broken or imbalanced, to be honest I'm trying to tell my friend to not look at point for point costs and look at how it benefits an army. For example he'll say

"A cannon only has to kill X model to do its points work"

To be honest I think the model in question was Nurgle beasts for 60 points. I was saying that they may be cheap but he needs to deal with them first, no matter the points that you use against them, due to them being used to tie up your expensive units. Obviously not your entire army but do you see my point?

Awesome, sounds good! And as pointed out, WS5 vs WS3 is enormous. Hitting on 3s is delicious.

A cannon only has to kill X model to do its points work... sometimes. Sort of. Was that unit worth less points, but going to cause more trouble? Then yes. Was it worth more points, but the cannon didn't fire on the scarier thing that started picking him apart? Then no. There's always the bigger picture, as you've surmised. I routinely throw away 30 point units of warhounds with zero direct gain and almost never even killing a single model, but the role they've played has been well worth their point investment.

Always, always keep your eyes on the bigger picture. If your friend is stuck on X vs Y, just smile and nod and then make sure to add up all the points at the end.

The answer is not to run Skullcrushers into Mournfangs. Instead use their mobility to hammer other things while you use chaff units to keep the Mournfangs out of play.

From what I was told. Chaff is a throw away unit, but how can anything hold up mournfang that's expendable and cheap? :/

Also, bear in mind that vs Mournfangs, you get at least one round to swing before that banner (which btw, doesnt do flaming attacks) comes ito play. They activate it at I2 step, after you have swung the first time round. Sure it gives you ASL, but only for one round.

 japehlio wrote:
Also, bear in mind that vs Mournfangs, you get at least one round to swing before that banner (which btw, doesnt do flaming attacks) comes ito play. They activate it at I2 step, after you have swung the first time round. Sure it gives you ASL, but only for one round.

the banner isnt worth it imo. i have played with it so many times and it has not really changed the end result much

Andy140491 wrote:
From what I was told. Chaff is a throw away unit, but how can anything hold up mournfang that's expendable and cheap? :/

They won't hold them up, so much as be trampled into a bloody smear but send the Mournfangs off-course in the process. Since Fantasy works with square-bases, it is possible to angle your units so that the enemy twists and turns out of position. It won't stop them from brutally murdering the blocking unit, but it means they are potentially stuck afterwards.
Send a unit of 5 scum directly in front of them and they only have 2 choices: Charge, kill and change direction, thus leaving them pointing the wrong way and open to flanking attacks. Alternatively they can wait for someone else to shoot the diverting unit out of the way, but in the process lose a whole turn of movement and combat.

One of the best bits about Warhammer. No matter how big and scary a unit gets, a single unit of Warhounds can still stop it without rolling a single dice.

Mozzamanx wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
From what I was told. Chaff is a throw away unit, but how can anything hold up mournfang that's expendable and cheap? :/

They won't hold them up, so much as be trampled into a bloody smear but send the Mournfangs off-course in the process. Since Fantasy works with square-bases, it is possible to angle your units so that the enemy twists and turns out of position. It won't stop them from brutally murdering the blocking unit, but it means they are potentially stuck afterwards.
Send a unit of 5 scum directly in front of them and they only have 2 choices: Charge, kill and change direction, thus leaving them pointing the wrong way and open to flanking attacks. Alternatively they can wait for someone else to shoot the diverting unit out of the way, but in the process lose a whole turn of movement and combat.

One of the best bits about Warhammer. No matter how big and scary a unit gets, a single unit of Warhounds can still stop it without rolling a single dice.

And you will find the rare case where that piece of chaff doesnt die and passes their hold check. I had a single sabretusk hold a unit of helstriders for 2 turns because they failed to kill it and combat kept washing out.

I'm still learning but I thought you could reform after winning combat? So surely you would just reform to face on coming charging units?

Andy140491 wrote:
I'm still learning but I thought you could reform after winning combat? So surely you would just reform to face on coming charging units?

If you charge the chaff and kill them in 1 round of combat you have to take a LD test to hold and reform. If you fail that test then you overrun straight foward 2d6"

And never underestimate the value of fleeing, so the Mournfangs have to go further away from where they're trying to go to reach them... and risk failing to get there entirely.

There's also double-flee tactics, where one unit flees through another, then when the Mournfangs redirect to the second, they flee through the first unit and cannot be reached. But since the Mournfangs redirected once, they cannot redirect again to target the first unit again, so once again they fail the charge.

Chaff tactics are very wide and varied. Take the time to experiment with them and see what happens.

 namiel wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
I'm still learning but I thought you could reform after winning combat? So surely you would just reform to face on coming charging units?

If you charge the chaff and kill them in 1 round of combat you have to take a LD test to hold and reform. If you fail that test then you overrun straight foward 2d6"

No. You get a choice of reform or overrun. Neither require leadership tests. As a matter of fact, the only time you need to take a Ld check to reform is if you lose combat.


That's the whole point of it. They spend an extra turn getting into position or they overrun out of it.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 namiel wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
I'm still learning but I thought you could reform after winning combat? So surely you would just reform to face on coming charging units?

If you charge the chaff and kill them in 1 round of combat you have to take a LD test to hold and reform. If you fail that test then you overrun straight foward 2d6"

No. You get a choice of reform or overrun. Neither require leadership tests. As a matter of fact, the only time you need to take a Ld check to reform is if you lose combat.


That's the whole point of it. They spend an extra turn getting into position or they overrun out of it.

Excuse my stupidity.... , but i get the fleeing aspect, as your opponent can pursue out of position or redirect into someone else, (if you elect to flee to you cause panic in your units still? Or is it just from fleeing a combat?) secondly... if your opponent can just wipe out chaff and redirect to face you, the only thing i can think of it being is like a speed bump? so if i was to position my counter charge unit?, say some Skullcrushers, diagonally to my warhounds, so the mournafang would have to charge the warhounds, and either redirect to face my charge, OR over run out of my charge arc? is that correct??

Andy140491 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 namiel wrote:

Andy140491 wrote:
I'm still learning but I thought you could reform after winning combat? So surely you would just reform to face on coming charging units?

If you charge the chaff and kill them in 1 round of combat you have to take a LD test to hold and reform. If you fail that test then you overrun straight foward 2d6"

No. You get a choice of reform or overrun. Neither require leadership tests. As a matter of fact, the only time you need to take a Ld check to reform is if you lose combat.


That's the whole point of it. They spend an extra turn getting into position or they overrun out of it.

Excuse my stupidity.... , but i get the fleeing aspect, as your opponent can pursue out of position or redirect into someone else, (if you elect to flee to you cause panic in your units still? Or is it just from fleeing a combat?) secondly... if your opponent can just wipe out chaff and redirect to face you, the only thing i can think of it being is like a speed bump? so if i was to position my counter charge unit?, say some Skullcrushers, diagonally to my warhounds, so the mournafang would have to charge the warhounds, and either redirect to face my charge, OR over run out of my charge arc? is that correct??

Yes. That's correct.