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Hey all. First time post with a sticky rules question I can't find an answer to.

TL;DR: Since the Waaagh! ability of the Ork Warboss specifically sets the state of units with 'Ere We Go! to "may charge in the assault phase," that advanced rule overrides the relatively more basic Reserve rules which say units can't charge the turn they enter from Reserves. Note that this isn't necessarily unbalanced, since iirc you would need to call Waaagh! before rolling for Reserves.

(Much!) More detailed argument in the spoilers.



Feedback would be appreciated.

First welcome to Dakka.

Second, Waagh overrides the restriction on charging after Running.

As such, in order to override assaulting from Reserves, Deep, Strike, or disembarking, you need specific permission.

Please see the link in my signature. Codex does not always override rulebook and advanced rules do not always override basic rules.

That is a misnomer, based on people's failure to grasp when rules actually contradict each other, which is precisely what is happening in this case.


The Waaagh rule grants permission for the unit to ignore precisely one restriction against assaulting, namely that being the restriction of a unit not being able to assault after running.

Any and all other restrictions against making an assault move still apply, even when the Waaagh is in effect.

 yakface wrote:
Please see the link in my signature. Codex does not always override rulebook and advanced rules do not always override basic rules.

That is a misnomer, based on people's failure to grasp when rules actually contradict each other, which is precisely what is happening in this case.

First, if I may say so, that was an excellent post. Second, I'm not sure that argument necessarily applies here. ("Augh, this idiot doesn't know what he's talking about!" I hear you say. Bear with me).

You're absolutely correct that this is not a case of "advanced overrides basic" here, and I concede that I misapplied that concept here. I checked the BRB's definition of basic rules, and I can see no reason that Reserves would be considered basic. So what we're dealing with is, at best, advanced contradicting advanced. Under the circumstances, I thinking defaulting to your metric of permissions vs. restrictions is wise. That said, however, the Waaagh! rule is a special case in that it explicitly repeals at least one restriction (or perhaps re-applies a restricted permission). In the abstract model, we have permissions and restrictions, but this adds a more nuanced third layer. Now what we have to do is figure out how far-reaching the repercussions are.

 Happyjew wrote:
Second, Waagh overrides the restriction on charging after Running.

 yakface wrote:
The Waaagh rule grants permission for the unit to ignore precisely one restriction against assaulting, namely that being the restriction of a unit not being able to assault after running.

I'd invite you to read the ability again:

Waaagh!: Once per game, at the start of any of your turns after the first, a model with this special rule can, if he is your Warlord, call a Waaagh! On the turn he does so, all friendly units made up entirely of models with the ’Ere We Go! special rule may charge in the Assault phase even if they made a Run move in the same turn.

Here's the first glance interpretation, which I think most people will play it as: The red text is a permission. The green text addresses at least one specific restriction. Looking at the red and orange text, I'm slightly confused—in most cases, units made up entirely of models with the 'Ere We Go! special rule could already charge in the Assault phase. But then we have the green text, which re-enables the orange permission for units which were restricted by having Run but not for other restrictions. I believe this is where you guys are coming from; correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't think the first glance interpretation takes it far enough. The logical construction "A even if B" will always return A regardless of the truth value of B. Usually "A even if B" is used to express that A happens, and while B would be expected to prevent A from happening, in this case it won't. (e.g. "I'm going shopping even if a murderous juggalo cult surrounds my apartment.") That makes it a semantic construction rather than a strictly logical one—the shopping happens regardless of whether the apartment is surrounded.

The Waaagh! wording is actually one step more complicated than this—the ability to charge is conditional on a Waaagh! being called. Expressed symbolically, that's "If W, then A." Unlike the previous construction, W actually does impact the truth value of A. (e.g. "If my cat demands food, I will go shopping.") If my cat doesn't demand food, I can go shopping or not, but if it does, then I will. And I will go shopping regardless of any murderous juggalos that happen to be about.

Hence my conclusion: " If W, then A, even if B" is logically equivalent to " If W, then A." If that's so, then it's valid to reverse the statement:
" If W, then A" is logically equivalent to " If W, then A, even if B."
And then we can substitute other logically equivalent statements:
" If W, then A" is logically equivalent to " If W, then A, even if it arrived from Reserves this turn."

So, logically speaking, the only thing that impacts a unit's ability to charge is whether a Waaagh! has been called and
oh god I've created a monster. Help me kill it, please?

While you obviously put some thought into this, it is overthinking it.

As stated before, the only restriciton you superscede is the one on assaulting after running.

GW does not write rules that have to be deconstructed in layers to figure out their meaning; they dont think enough about the rules to do that.

They, for the most part, write things that mean exactly what they say (sometimes even forgetting about rules they wrote 2 paragraphs ahead).

So you believe it overrides all restrictions. Do you therefore believe it overrides these restrictions too?

Having fired a Heavy Weapon
Having disembarked a non-assault vehicle
Having no LoS to your target unit
Failing your charge roll
Being more than 12" away from the unit

If not why are they different?

On the turn they disembark from an Open Topped transport a unit may charge even if they disembarked from a transport this turn.

That doesn't mean you can assault from Reserves if you hop out of a Battlewagon. Your example has 2 restrictions:
1) Arriving from Reserve.
2) Running.

Ere we go removes one of those restrictions, but not the other.

Thanks for the replies, everyone. This is basically what it's coming down to for me:

1. As FlingItNow noted, my Waaagh! interpretation broke the game (although you left Being Locked in Combat off the list). This is exactly what yakface predicted for when restrictions aren't properly applied.
2. On the other hand, my Waaagh! interpretation is logically flawless (ostensibly), so I have to stand by the logic and would have done so had the conclusion not been so ridiculous.
3. Except! I analyzed the Waaagh! ability in a vacuum, when actually it's part of the rules system and thus the construction "If W, then A, even if B" is not absolute.

So yeah, I was totally wrong. Thanks for humoring me.

Yep, 3 was the real issue.

Yeah, I remember using this logic back when Slaanesh chaos had combat drugs.

"Pick up to three abilities from this table. Roll a die for each ability chosen. If you roll a double, the model suffers a wound with no saves of any kind. If a triple is rolled, the model is removed as a casualty with no saves of any kind. If only a single ability is chosen, the model cannot be harmed. It then said that any abilities granted from the chart (FROM THE CHART) only lasted until the end of the assault phase.


Whenever someone was being a complete D-bag in terms of rules, I told them that all my aspiring champions and ICs were using a single combat drug on the first assault phase of the game. SInce it didn't specify that it was the drugs they wouldn't be harmed by, and instead granted blanket invincibility, and specified no duration for this invincibility, I now couldn't lose the game because none of my characters could ever die.

The logic was flawless, the wording completely clear, and they became much more willing to compromise on rules after having it explained.

Hahahaha that's a great story. I had never thought of using rule interpretation as performance art.

That book was full of strange errors. If you used the rapturous standard in a squad of chosen, they BECAME the feel no pain special rule.

Apparently model-to-special rule transcendance was a thing, back then.