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I know they're not everyone's first choice, but how are people running Raveners?

Rending Claws/deathspitters is the most expensive but seems to put out a lot of hurt. I assume 45 point models with 5+ saves aren't the best though...

Rending Claws and Spinefists are nice, but I ditch the talons most times. I'm not willing to dump 20pts (4 Raveners, maybe a Red Terror because I have the model) on a brood most likely to die when that can be put towards the Red Terror or a needed upgrade on my Warriors or something. Spinefists give three shots, twin-linked. I'll take the weak power for the same amount of hits and just before charging into the assault. Softens up the target just a little but that's all that's needed.

ictoabu wrote:
I know they're not everyone's first choice, but how are people running Raveners?

Rending Claws/deathspitters is the most expensive but seems to put out a lot of hurt. I assume 45 point models with 5+ saves aren't the best though...

Personally I don't like Raveners..But if you Must take them....I think Rending Claws are a "must" upgrade, but I would likely run them with Spinefists in their Thorax....cheap, and accurate...I think it'll do.

rending claws is a must. spinefists got nerfed indirectly by the nerf to the rav's attacks characteristic, at least they're still cheap.

ravs suffer from the all too common problem of having a great model thats' too expensive and fragile to be useful outside of friendly games.

also, shrikes do pretty much the same thing but have synapse and better weapon/biomorph load outs.

A squad of 9, with 6 rending claws is relatively cheap and will do great damage. Given catalyst, cover, and/or one of Swarmy's buffs, they seem very viable to me.

I'm hoping to use 3 full broods of them soon, once they're built. I've got dreams of 60 hormagaunts and 27 raveners in the enemy DZ turn 2...

300 points isn't what i'd call cheap.

6-9 with rending claws. Leave the spinefists at home -- they'll either be running or shoot themselves out of assault range.

Deploy them and go aggro with them. A flyrant or two plus a deep striking Mawloc or trygon turn 2 helps add to the threat overload. In most games your raveners will be assaulting by turn 2. Have fun.

SBG wrote:
A squad of 9, with 6 rending claws is relatively cheap and will do great damage. Given catalyst, cover, and/or one of Swarmy's buffs, they seem very viable to me.

I'm hoping to use 3 full broods of them soon, once they're built. I've got dreams of 60 hormagaunts and 27 raveners in the enemy DZ turn 2...

Just make sure to have some Synapse...or it might not be pretty. With buckets of Raveners, I guess a Trygon Prime would be a valid choice to babysit.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
6-9 with rending claws. Leave the spinefists at home -- they'll either be running or shoot themselves out of assault range.

Deploy them and go aggro with them. A flyrant or two plus a deep striking Mawloc or trygon turn 2 helps add to the threat overload. In most games your raveners will be assaulting by turn 2. Have fun.

Completely agree, rending claws only; you'll never want to shoot unless you deepstrike them (don't do that: you may scatter out of terrain and then get shot down by bolters etc). 12" move + fleet charge off the line can surprise some opponents. I've made (bottom of) turn 1 assaults with them when my opponent foolishly moved up a few inches off the line. The new Smash rule means you can tie up shooty enemy MCs with them fairly effectively (most can only ID you when they choose the single Smash attack) and grind them down with rending. Once they're in combat they don't need synapse unless they're losing.

Thanks everyone for your responses. I'm feeling the cheap and no guns option. Putting them together in a bit so I hope it pans out!

 gigasnail wrote:
300 points isn't what i'd call cheap.

well it is only 60 points cheaper than a wraithknight, with 27 wounds and what, 36 rending attacks, 45 on the charge?

60 points more than a Wraithknight isn't it?

yeah, it's...60 points more. for a T4 5+ save unit. there are many reasons people don't use these guys.

Generally speaking, you'd take Raveners to make full use of The Red Terror (which boosts the LD to 8 and can take care of those EW Characters like Calgar etc). Their Initiative value of 5 has to be used in conjunction with Pinning weapons and/or The Horror, so it's necessary to add Broodlords/Harpies/Artillery Node, otherwise it serves no purpose. They have to be babysitted most times (although the increased LD provided by The Red Terror can somewhat mitigate that) by Fast/Deep Strike/Huge Synapse (like Winged Hive Tyrants, Trygon Prime, Swarmlord with/without Dominion) and are not that cost efficient at all (you're almost forced to buy Rending Claws); on the other hand the Shrikes provide quick Synapse, gain access to Bio-Cannons (the S4 AP5 Large Blast Pinning is compulsory here since the other serves no utility at all), can take different weapons (If you do so, I suggest mix and matching those to maximize their potential, like a Biocannon model behind, ablative Wounds ahead and "hidden" LW/BS guys in the middle) and commonly don't need the Flesh Hooks...

In conclusion? Shrikes fit better the "general purpose" role, Raveners need dedicated lists to work.

red terror is pretty terrible. if you're taking ravenors, just use the extra points you would have spent on RT to take more ravenors.

 gigasnail wrote:
red terror is pretty terrible. if you're taking ravenors, just use the extra points you would have spent on RT to take more ravenors.

It isn't, since it's the only one in our codex that can effectively pierce through those EW guys hiding behind seven pro...ehm good invulnerable saves

 gigasnail wrote:
yeah, it's...60 points more. for a T4 5+ save unit. there are many reasons people don't use these guys.

yeah I meant to say more, my bad. the 5+ doesnt bother me so much as they should always be using cover since they are beasts, but the T4 I can understand. But at the very least, if they are attempting missile shots at your raveners, means it isn't hitting your Big-unz', and that is something. I am undecided about Big red...

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
red terror is pretty terrible. if you're taking ravenors, just use the extra points you would have spent on RT to take more ravenors.

It isn't, since it's the only one in our codex that can effectively pierce through those EW guys hiding behind seven pro...ehm good invulnerable saves

It needs to hit with all it's attacks for that and need the enemy to fail their invul so it's miles away from being effective against anything with a good invul.

pm713 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
red terror is pretty terrible. if you're taking ravenors, just use the extra points you would have spent on RT to take more ravenors.

It isn't, since it's the only one in our codex that can effectively pierce through those EW guys hiding behind seven pro...ehm good invulnerable saves

It needs to hit with all it's attacks for that and need the enemy to fail their invul so it's miles away from being effective against anything with a good invul.

4 Attacks needed out of 6 on the charge, if 3+ most likely to do so, else with Preferred Enemy from the Swarmlord or Paroxysm on the unit there's a good chance to tick the special attack off

but then you'd have to be using swarmlord, which is pretty awful itself. you have to land 4/6 of your on the charge attacks and the unit still has to fail its invul save. it's bad, guys. adding more ravenors with the points is a better idea; it soaks as many hits and has as many or more attacks.

Not sold on Red Terror either, but it is T5, which means it can tank a few S8 shots and attempt to LOS the small arms fire to the guys behind him. He's prolly too expensive for what he does (no rending option is a bummer as well), but I don't think he's either terrible or worthless.

As for shrikes being a better overall selection, I agree. However, if I start running Raveners, I may run a unit of shrikes ALONG WITH the raveners to provide the fast moving synapse they'd need and help cause serious problems to whatever flank they end up streaking towards. It doesn't have to be either / or...

Also...I run the Swarmlord quite often when I play my bugs and he's never the liability people profess him to be. Preferred Enemy is pretty great for my 2 Dakkafexen, and being a Lvl 3 psyker, as well as helping with reserve rolls, is nice as well. If you're rushing things forward and getting up into your opponent's grill, they usually aren't shooting everything the've got at the slower MC hanging out in the ruins or being screened by other units. He is expensive...that's his only true negative.

expensive, ground based, slow, T6 with no invul outside of CC, 3+ armor save only...

Judging by people's comments on this thread, 60% of units in the entire game are USELESS because they're foot-based.

I really don't agree with that assessment.

no delivery system, it walks across the board, doing no damage, while being kited or avoided or just shot up. no, the SL is not a good unit folks.

 gigasnail wrote:
no delivery system, it walks across the board, doing no damage, while being kited or avoided or just shot up. no, the SL is not a good unit folks.

Ever heard of board control? Often, having enemy units avoiding an area of the board is more useful than getting across the board in 1 turn. This game is not all about doing damage, it's holding objectives that wins.

no one's going to avoid raveners, they're just going to kill them at range (easily) and they're too expensive to waste as area denial.

 gigasnail wrote:
no one's going to avoid raveners, they're just going to kill them at range (easily) and they're too expensive to waste as area denial.

My personal experience is contrary to that statement. My raveners have seen melee every time I've fielded them. Also swarmlord has proved an invaluable support caster as well as melee masher. I will politefully disagree with you on this matter.

everyone's gaming environment is different. if your opponents don't shoot your raveners, hey man work out.