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So I just got done reading the story Engine of Mork which has me wondering when the tau dont have air superiority to deploy tiger-sharks or mantas how do the Tau normally handle:

Small things like Killa Kans, Deaf Dreads.

Big things like Gorkanaut-Morkanauts, Mega Dreads

Large things like Stompas, Gargants (standard, great and mega).

while out numbered or facing assembled mobs of orky war constructs.


And while im on the subject of that, have the Tau ever encountered Gargants in the lore or managed to beat one with no air support ?

Kans are easy, pulse fire actually hurts them.

As for deff dreads, mega dreads, etc. if you go back to the origin of tau, you remember that they have the "one answer to everything" unit, the crisis suit.

No matter what you have, the crisis suit will ruin your day when equipped properly, diving from the skies and blasing you with an array of plasma, fusion, missiles, pulse fire and regular fire will kill everything from hordes to heavy tanks.

When it comes to gargants and superheavies, there the tau are in problem on the ground, they got no direct answer to them and the new riptide is the closest thing they got to heavy-duty ground domination factor.

AX-1-0 tigersharks are the answer there fluff-wise, while not quite effective in rules, in the fluff they are the titan-hunters that all fear, as their production costs are far below that of the things they hunt, and they are too fast, too nimble and with far too much range for most "zone control" type units most super heavies are to even retaliate.

When it comes to "no air support" though, you need to note that fluff rail weapons are far, FAR superior to their in-game, as in a simple broadside shot might go through multiple tanks.
Railgun hammerheads can and do hurt titans, in fact the characther "longstrike", in fluff, got his fame partly from taking down a warhound with a well-aimed shot (and perior to that having pretty much a "one shot one kill" record against a small horde of leman russes)

Have the tau encountered anything bigger than a stompa the in lore ork wise ?

Multiple warhounds (they are bigger and meaner than stompas)

Not sure if anything even bigger than that was ever deployed against them though, but given that tigersharks chase warhounds away and the tau got mantas who are practically a tigershark, a fortress and a carrier combined on one flying platform, I think the'll have the ability to at least give it a fight for his money.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Have the tau encountered anything bigger than a stompa the in lore ork wise ?

Most fluff references to Tau have them engage the Orks in Space battles and either obliterating them there (usual outcome) or somehow losing their advantage through necron involvement, random stuff out of nowhere or kunnin' strategy and the planet/sector being left defenseless after the fleet has been beaten. So as far as most fluff goes, if their superior spaceships fail them and the orks manage to successfully make planetfall, the Tau are boned.

 Jidmah wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Have the tau encountered anything bigger than a stompa the in lore ork wise ?

Most fluff references to Tau have them engage the Orks in Space battles and either obliterating them there (usual outcome) or somehow losing their advantage through necron involvement, random stuff out of nowhere or kunnin' strategy and the planet/sector being left defenseless after the fleet has been beaten. So as far as most fluff goes, if their superior spaceships fail them and the orks manage to successfully make planetfall, the Tau are boned.

Unless the orks have the ill fortune of landing on a farsight enclave or against farsight himself. The orks will have some Lulz but im the end if farsight is there the tau win.

As far as I'm aware, Farsight also tends to intercept most Orks before they manage to land. Note that in fluff the Tau navy is far superior to anything the ork manage to muster, and only exceptionally cunning warbosses or interferences from the outside cause the tau to actually lose battles to the orks.

Shaso_Keo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Have the tau encountered anything bigger than a stompa the in lore ork wise ?

Most fluff references to Tau have them engage the Orks in Space battles and either obliterating them there (usual outcome) or somehow losing their advantage through necron involvement, random stuff out of nowhere or kunnin' strategy and the planet/sector being left defenseless after the fleet has been beaten. So as far as most fluff goes, if their superior spaceships fail them and the orks manage to successfully make planetfall, the Tau are boned.

Unless the orks have the ill fortune of landing on a farsight enclave or against farsight himself. The orks will have some Lulz but im the end if farsight is there the tau win.

Generally speaking, even on non Farsight worlds the Tau tend to kill Orks. Several other commanders have virtually casualty free records against Orks. The Tau Hammerhead pretty easily counters even Stompas or Gargants (the Mechanicus tends to run away from them and/or pull out of war zones because they have no way to counter the superior speed, target acquisition, firepower, and range of the hammerhead).

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Have the tau encountered anything bigger than a stompa the in lore ork wise ?

Most fluff references to Tau have them engage the Orks in Space battles and either obliterating them there (usual outcome) or somehow losing their advantage through necron involvement, random stuff out of nowhere or kunnin' strategy and the planet/sector being left defenseless after the fleet has been beaten. So as far as most fluff goes, if their superior spaceships fail them and the orks manage to successfully make planetfall, the Tau are boned.

Unless the orks have the ill fortune of landing on a farsight enclave or against farsight himself. The orks will have some Lulz but im the end if farsight is there the tau win.

Generally speaking, even on non Farsight worlds the Tau tend to kill Orks. Several other commanders have virtually casualty free records against Orks. The Tau Hammerhead pretty easily counters even Stompas or Gargants (the Mechanicus tends to run away from them and/or pull out of war zones because they have no way to counter the superior speed, target acquisition, firepower, and range of the hammerhead).

The hammerhead driving away Mechanicus? Hardly. The front armour of a Baneblade can absorb Hammerhead hits without issues. (Source: Courage and Honour)

 Ashiraya wrote:
The hammerhead driving away Mechanicus? Hardly. The front armour of a Baneblade can absorb Hammerhead hits without issues. (Source: Courage and Honour)

Which is why any halfway competent Tau commander wouldn't shoot them in the front. There are advantages of having a main battle tank that is capable of suborbital flight.

Anyway, Tau doctrine is all about the hit and run. make the enemy take heavier losses than you do. Hit them in strategic points. That kind of thing. A lot like Space Marines honestly. They don't need air superiority to make that happen, but not having access to air superiority does put serious problems in the Tau standard doctrine. I could see Stealth Suits getting a lot more use in the opening phases of an engagement like that.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

Shaso_Keo wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
Have the tau encountered anything bigger than a stompa the in lore ork wise ?

Most fluff references to Tau have them engage the Orks in Space battles and either obliterating them there (usual outcome) or somehow losing their advantage through necron involvement, random stuff out of nowhere or kunnin' strategy and the planet/sector being left defenseless after the fleet has been beaten. So as far as most fluff goes, if their superior spaceships fail them and the orks manage to successfully make planetfall, the Tau are boned.

Unless the orks have the ill fortune of landing on a farsight enclave or against farsight himself. The orks will have some Lulz but im the end if farsight is there the tau win.

Generally speaking, even on non Farsight worlds the Tau tend to kill Orks. Several other commanders have virtually casualty free records against Orks. The Tau Hammerhead pretty easily counters even Stompas or Gargants (the Mechanicus tends to run away from them and/or pull out of war zones because they have no way to counter the superior speed, target acquisition, firepower, and range of the hammerhead).

The hammerhead driving away Mechanicus? Hardly. The front armour of a Baneblade can absorb Hammerhead hits without issues. (Source: Courage and Honour)

The Tauros Campaign says, quite clearly that hammerheads punk Warhounds with ease. Baneblade nothing... The Mechanicus pulls off planet and lets the guard get butchered.

From what I've been reading the stompa seems to give the tau a hard time when it has a kustom forcefield. They even describe in the farsight codex during the ghoul gorge battle how broadside railgun fire was ineffectual against what I assume is stompa by it's description. Similarly in Engine of Mork they couldn't harm a big mek stompa possessing a force field with concentrated missle fire, rail guns or plasma fire from battlesuit. Is this normal or is there something else the tau usually do to handle that other than concentrated fire ?

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

The Tauros Campaign says, quite clearly that hammerheads punk Warhounds with ease. Baneblade nothing... The Mechanicus pulls off planet and lets the guard get butchered.

I've never heard of the Tauros Campaign, but Imperial Armour volume 3 The Taros Campaign (1st edition) explicitly stated the exact opposite: The Warhounds engaged the Hammerheads at extreme range and were blasting them to smithereens with complete impunity. The Titans were withdrawn only after the Tau deployed the dedicated Titan-Killing AX-1-0 variant of the Tiger Shark bomber.

Keep in mind that fluff is usually written to highlight the current faction's viewpoint. There are some issues in the fluff where the same battle is described in two completely different ways. For example, the Crimson Fist citadel was destroyed by infiltrating tank bustaz who blew up their reactor from the ork perspective, where the space marine codex describes the destruction as an unlucky chain reaction from a stray rokkit.

Whoops... there doesn't seem to be anything here.

In sufficient numbers, I have no doubt railgun Hammerheads could bring down a Gargant. The issue would be getting close enough, since the bigger the Ork war machine, the larger the mass of footslogging orks accompanying it.

In sufficient numbers, I have no doubt railgun Hammerheads could bring down a Gargant. The issue would be getting close enough, since the bigger the Ork war machine, the larger the mass of footslogging orks accompanying it.

Can a Hammerhead outrange a gargant ? I was under the impression gargants have extremely long range ( if inaccurate) weapons compared to normal tanks and artillery outside of things like the death strike or mabey a skyray.

The hammerhead itself is boasting absurd ranges too, easily out-ranges any other main battle tank around.

And the fact the thing can fly (although not amazingly) makes it incredibly hard to pick it off with inaccurate weapons.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

In sufficient numbers, I have no doubt railgun Hammerheads could bring down a Gargant. The issue would be getting close enough, since the bigger the Ork war machine, the larger the mass of footslogging orks accompanying it.

Can a Hammerhead outrange a gargant ? I was under the impression gargants have extremely long range ( if inaccurate) weapons compared to normal tanks and artillery outside of things like the death strike or mabey a skyray.

I read this to mean that there would be a dozen miles or more of Orks in advance of the Gargant.

 BadMoonMek wrote:
I read this to mean that there would be a dozen miles or more of Orks in advance of the Gargant.

And then there would be a dozen miles of dead orks when the Tau nuke the horde.

 Sillycybin wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Note that in fluff the Tau navy is far superior to anything the ork manage to muster.

I'm pretty sure the tau get rocked by the imperial navy at democles, with this in mind ork navies do stand up to imperial ones.

I'm only echoing what the ork fluff I've read tells me. Maybe it's a rock-paper scissors thing? Orks tend to end fights by boarding the enemy spacecraft (burnaz are explicitly described as being in charge of cutting open airlocks), if tau manage to prevent that, they are golden. Another possibility is that tau are better at intercepting masses of small space ships which usually make up the ork fleets, while the imperial navy is better at taking out capital ships at long range, which is perfect against the tau but massively ineffective against space hulks, rokks and thousands of ramshackle figher and corvette-class air craft.

The new ork codex describes an entire freeboota fleet being stopped by a single tau warship patrolling the borders of tau space, until some kommandoz blow up its refueling station and thus leave the ship helpless.

Also keep in mind that if the IoM manages to pull enough resources together, they could simply outnumber the tau.

 Gashrog wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

The Tauros Campaign says, quite clearly that hammerheads punk Warhounds with ease. Baneblade nothing... The Mechanicus pulls off planet and lets the guard get butchered.

I've never heard of the Tauros Campaign, but Imperial Armour volume 3 The Taros Campaign (1st edition) explicitly stated the exact opposite: The Warhounds engaged the Hammerheads at extreme range and were blasting them to smithereens with complete impunity. The Titans were withdrawn only after the Tau deployed the dedicated Titan-Killing AX-1-0 variant of the Tiger Shark bomber.

You're right, I was getting it confused with the running tank battle in the deserts.

However, there are a few caveats in the Titan battle. The Tau are blocked up and unable to keep dancing back (as it's implied they could still outrange the Imperials easily) and the Tigershark's main feature is the fact it is an aircraft and thus not easily engaged by the Titan. It doesn't pack anything the Tau weren't already shooting.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
the Tigershark's main feature is the fact it is an aircraft and thus not easily engaged by the Titan. It doesn't pack anything the Tau weren't already shooting.

Not true at all. The railgun Tigershark carries a pair of titan-scale railguns (like the ones used on the Manta), not the "normal" railgun used on the Hammerhead. The innovation was stripping out the Manta's transport capacity and secondary weapons and building a pure titan killer that would be a smaller target and not put the army's transports at risk every time a titan needs to die.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
the Tigershark's main feature is the fact it is an aircraft and thus not easily engaged by the Titan. It doesn't pack anything the Tau weren't already shooting.

Not true at all. The railgun Tigershark carries a pair of titan-scale railguns (like the ones used on the Manta), not the "normal" railgun used on the Hammerhead. The innovation was stripping out the Manta's transport capacity and secondary weapons and building a pure titan killer that would be a smaller target and not put the army's transports at risk every time a titan needs to die.

I can't find that in my copy, although I do have the old IA. It just mentions putting the standard railgun into a flyer.

Still, to pop the shields it just hits the titan with a bevy of seeker missles, and then rakes it with railgun fire afterwards. A skyray and a couple hammerheads would provide the same as far as the text in the original IA implies.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
I can't find that in my copy, although I do have the old IA. It just mentions putting the standard railgun into a flyer.

Page 198. The Tigershark's railguns are explicitly called heavy railguns, usually mounted on a Manta.

A skyray and a couple hammerheads would provide the same as far as the text in the original IA implies.

Except they really can't. The Sky Ray might be able to provide the seeker missile salvo after the titan's void shields have already been taking fire, but the Hammerheads are much, much less powerful than the Tigershark. Eventually they could probably kill the titan (if they survive long enough), but they're going to be well short of the Tigershark's ability to one-shot it.

The Imperial Answer wrote:

In sufficient numbers, I have no doubt railgun Hammerheads could bring down a Gargant. The issue would be getting close enough, since the bigger the Ork war machine, the larger the mass of footslogging orks accompanying it.

Can a Hammerhead outrange a gargant ? I was under the impression gargants have extremely long range ( if inaccurate) weapons compared to normal tanks and artillery outside of things like the death strike or mabey a skyray.

I do think that a gargant likely mounts weapons that outrange even a Hammerhead, but the key would be to use concealment to wait for the Gargant to enter range, then deal it a massive blow and fall back before the Orks are able to counter-mobilize. It would take a lot of them to destroy it in one volley, but if the Ork advance is crossing enough ground they could wear it down with a smaller force over the course of several ambushes.

Peregrine wrote:

 BadMoonMek wrote:
I read this to mean that there would be a dozen miles or more of Orks in advance of the Gargant.

And then there would be a dozen miles of dead orks when the Tau nuke the horde.

Yeah, the green tide advancing past an ambush position (and thus probably detecting it) before the Hammerheads were in range was exactly what I was holding out as a potential stumbling block. Gotta say though, I'm a little curious what kind of Tau weaponry you think can actually stop such a horde. The Tau specialize in precision strikes, which don't work so well when your opponent brings more bodies than you bring bullets.

Railguns solve hordes as well with submmunitions.

And pulse fire is practically putting bolters to shame on it, and tau got that in droves. and even hammerhead mounted when you really, REALLY want to kill hordes (there is a LBBC hammerhead varient from taros, it was discontinued due to wasting the platform as was the plasma that was replaced by ion, melta that was not on par with railguns and missile pods variant that was replaced by skyrays.)

New generation pulse submmunition XV9s and HBC riptides would made it a joke really to eliminate hordes, as would HYMP broadsides.

You're going to need more than a swarm of generic ork boys to take down a tau line, even in taros and especially after. they have gotten good at mowing hordes of expendables, as it seems to be the main tactic of their three major enemies (IoM, nids and orks)

Also, more bodies than bullets fail when half the enemy armory does not need bullets.

Also what if the gargant has a kustom forcefield ? I've read about those making railgun fire useless unless the tau are extremely close (close enough for the orks to ingage in melee or swarm them).

I don't know where you read it, and as I am not aware of HOW KFF works, I cannot analyze the interaction.

Rending reailgun shots useless is suspecious to me though, given that they cause pain to warhound titans from long ranges and chew void shields.

"Gargant" isn't exactly a defined term. If it's walking on two legs and supersedes a certain size, it becomes a gargant. Some gargants are shot down by a team of space marines with lascannons, others destroy an emperor titan and its retinue of warlord and warhound titans while losing no more than an arm. It's hard to tell how tau would fare against gargants since they come in all kind of sizes and power levels.