Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Now I realize that any given combat group caps out at 10 guys, but it seems like a lot of (most?) lists are always trying to hit this number once you're in a high enough points bracket. I totally get wanting to have 10 orders to cruise around with for your TAG or link team or rambo/assassin/murderbeast. What's throwing me off is why it seems rare to take a second group, maybe with some warbrands or otherwise impetuous troops to lessen the blow of that group not having a full pack of orders for itself.

Is it just too inefficient? Does stuffing 50 points of skirmish/warbrand/whatever off on their own mean the other group will be weaker in comparison to the enemy and more likely to get curbstomped?

Maybe it's that if you really only want 1-2 rambo/tag/uber units to suck up all the orders, there's little point of spending points in a second group that doesn't contribute to this?


Or am I missing something entirely and just seeing a trend that doesn't exist, and people happily take all kinds of lists with multiple combat groups?


I'm cool with doing what works, but not getting to play very often means I don't have the frame of reference from experience to look at these things the way the rest of you probably do.

Thanks for looking!

The main thing with having two groups is that each has only access to its own Order pools. Given the cost of most models, you will have trouble getting enough Orders in each group to actually do anything, especially once you start taking losses.
A group with, say, 3 Orders at the beginning of the game is not going to do much: it usually takes 2-3 Orders to set up an attack.
I have seen small Fireteams placed in their own group quite often, which work because they are order efficient: you can use their Orders to prepare an attack with the entire Fireteam, rather than spending Orders on each model individually.
It's hard and usually painful to attack a well positioned Fireteam, but it's usually easy to attack an isolated model.

Other than that, having a group that can only stay in place and protect a flank or the rear of the advance is not that useful, and you are usually better off if you upgrade a few models in the main group. That way, you have more Orders available when you start taking losses, and better models to spend them on.
If you have a single group, once your best models are dead*, you will have slightly less best models available, and Orders to spend on them.
If you have two groups, once your best models are dead, you will have third rate models, or even just troopers available, and not enough Orders to actually use them well enough to make a difference.
Nothing worse than seeing an exposed flank, and realizing that you don't have quite enough Orders to get a model there.



* For some reason, your opponent will shoot at them, if you are not using them as a diversion. If you are, your opponent will ignore them.

That all makes sense for sure.

So taking a second group with some impetuous angry dudes like Morlocks doesn't have enough of an advantage to generally be considered? Just wondering what with the extra impetuous orders they'd get. You couldn't concentrate what any of them could do, but there would be several meanies running around watching out for the other guys.

And the thing with fireteams, so you could take a 4-5 moderator link or maybe 3 riot grrls and while they fend for themselves, you could pack in another 10 man group with something nasty/tag-like gobbling up all those orders and expect results?

It's not like I have list building hipster/snowflake syndrome, I've just had some ideas and without getting to play much it's hard to think them all the way out without additional intel.

Impetuous is not that great when you don't have that many Order: it can force you to run into AROs, assuming a good opponent. Always assume that your opponent is the best player imaginable when planning. That way, it will be less painful during the game, when you see how limited your imagination was.
I don't know the Nomad enough to tell you what you would lose to get a second group of Morlocks so I can't really tell you if it's workable or not, but it's definitively a risk.
That's the key problem: it's not just about what you get, it's also about what you could have gotten.
If you can fit all the tools you need, with backup, in a single group, and you still have points left, go for it. What you should not do is removing something you need to get a second group.

That being said, given their cost, I would tend to use a Fireteam of riot in the main group, to feed them 10 Orders and really ruin your opponent's day. Why take 3 shots when you can take 10 ?
A Moderator Fireteam, composed of the 9 points profile, could be workable, but only if you already have everything you need in the main group.

Having the ten man group means you get to be flexible with all of the orders in that group. You know you have 10 Orders, which is the max for a group, so you can use them effectively. So most people try to make this group as efficient as possible, so they can have dangerous, varied units in the mix. It also means that they'll be tempted to take one or two really elite units to fill up that Point Limit as well. If you try and stretch that point limit across two balanced groups, then you start to get two sometimes less effective group.

What I think you are looking to do is exactly what I do with my Yu Jing forces. I have one combat group of super-cheap close range violent people, which is like... I dunno... 60 points for 8 Kuang Shi and a Controller.

Then the rest of the 240 points goes into the other squad, the main murderteam.

So yeah, if you think having a squad of violence, and even if it is only 5 dudes or so, it is still enough to cause hate and discontent and have fun.

In the broadest sense, I'm looking at list building possibilities, and things to not do. I'm mostly painting now, and getting the things I like. But I love to make lists as well, and theoretically play whenever that happens, and so sometimes I'll buy something and paint it for what it'll do in the game. If it's pointless to go over 10 dudes, then getting a bunch of something and knowing I won't use it is kind of silly. But if I can throw 3-5 morlocks out on their own and still pack in a good solid 10 man group, then I'd like to have that as an option.


Oh, right! What about stuffing extra dudes who don't really need orders into a side group? Like sin eaters with their neurocinamajigger or total reaction remotes? Cover more ground on ARO and still get 10 orders to feed to your Hero.

 GrimDork wrote:
In the broadest sense, I'm looking at list building possibilities, and things to not do.

Short version: think about how you want to use the list in a game. Plan. Think about the things you do not want your opponent to do, and make sure you can counter them. If you can do that, then your list is fine.
Usually, having a second small group will force you to remove something you need from the main group. That's not always the case, and the Kuang Shi Fireteam is a good example.
I often play against that, and I usually need to spend most of a turn dealing with them. If I don't, they can and will kill models, each worth more than the entire Fireteam.

 GrimDork wrote:
IOh, right! What about stuffing extra dudes who don't really need orders into a side group? Like sin eaters with their neurocinamajigger or total reaction remotes? Cover more ground on ARO and still get 10 orders to feed to your Hero.

That should work, yes. That being said, the "send all your Orders into 1 models, all the time" (i.e. "Ramboing") is a local minimum: it works well for a new player facing another new player, but it does not work that well against experienced players.
The trick is to avoid Rambo and kill its Orders.

Cool that it isn't always all 10 orders on the same guy, Bakunin seems to have a lot of good medium infantry to spread the love around.

I personally ran 13 models recently, in Hassassin Bahram. I used two Ghazi Mutti'wah. My original plan was running them as their own group, but even as 5pt suicide units I knew they would need orders to go after targets of opportunity. I was also running a pair of Kameel.

So I ended up putting my Lasiq sniper in the second group, with the 2 Kameel. The Kameel just it there, basically cheerleaders. I figured if I started my Lasiq in a good spot she wouldn't need too many orders to reposition for better shots. That also gave my Ghazi an order pool if they needed it, and my Muyib link gave me order efficiency in an 8 regular order pool.

Worked well for me. The thing is most experienced players don't post lists, since they're not just making one list. They're making a list on the spot or before they go to an event, and know what they want it to do, so they're not going to ask for critique.

Huh, that's an interesting thought. I guess that's how it is though, you see people asking for help not people proclaiming to all who will listen that this is the best list as it just won them the tournament.

I guess I'll just have to keep buying what looks cool and suss out what works best when/if I actually get to play

 GrimDork wrote:
In the broadest sense, I'm looking at list building possibilities, and things to not do. I'm mostly painting now, and getting the things I like. But I love to make lists as well, and theoretically play whenever that happens, and so sometimes I'll buy something and paint it for what it'll do in the game. If it's pointless to go over 10 dudes, then getting a bunch of something and knowing I won't use it is kind of silly. But if I can throw 3-5 morlocks out on their own and still pack in a good solid 10 man group, then I'd like to have that as an option.


Oh, right! What about stuffing extra dudes who don't really need orders into a side group? Like sin eaters with their neurocinamajigger or total reaction remotes? Cover more ground on ARO and still get 10 orders to feed to your Hero.

Your pretty spot on with how to use group #2.

Warbands in particular benefit enormously from 1-2 regular orders in their pool, the problem is these orders, even as simple cheerleaders, are often more expensive than the warbands themselves.

Neucinetics, snipers etc are also great for #2 because a) they don't need orders to be effective and b) they can die (which they will) without reducing your main order pool.

Edit: If your willing to run lots of chaff, you can run two whole relatively standard (as opposed to all-irregular) combat groups in a lot of armies. I do this with my Tohaa all the time, but Bakunin for instance could roll tons of moderators and morlocks and likely still have points for something reasonable.

There's nothing wrong with a 'passive' group 2. IE, your Evo Repeater, Total Reaction/Defense Units, or just rabble to fill the field (Ie, Pretas spamming Mines).

If you want a 'real' group 2, consider a bare minimum of 14 models: 7 orders for each group. Ideally, get 16. For like a 9/7 split or something.

I played the following list during the Interplanetary in Vigo. Although the second Combat Group does not have too many orders, the models performed to what I wanted them to do. Mind that I wasn't playing at the top with Avatars and the like, but I managed to land 8th.

Haqqislam - Hassassin Bahram | 20 models
________________________________________________________

Combat Group #1
Fiday BS (34|0)
Ghulam HMG (21|1)
Ghulam Sniper (18|0.5)
Husam Rifle (-0 bs, Viral Sniper Rifle, Hacker (Hacking Device), Doctor, Minelayer) (13|0|12xp)
Ghulam Lieutenant (13|0)
Ghulam Doctor (17|0)
Ragik HMG (38|1.5)
Barid FO (17|0)
Najjarun Engineer (17|0)
Kameel Minesweeper (8|0)
Combat Group #2
Fanous Repeater (8|0)
Kameel Minesweeper (8|0)
Rafiq Rifle (22|0)
Muttawi'ah Chain (5|0)
Muttawi'ah Chain (5|0)
Muttawi'ah Chain (5|0)
Daylami Camo (11|0)
Daylami Camo (11|0)
Daylami Camo+Rocket (14|1)
Daylami Camo+Rocket (14|1)
________________________________________________________

299/300 points | 5/6 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox : http://goo.gl/TtywfH


I also had a regular Muyyib link list with 3 Ghazi in their own group. They were left as "living mines" most of the time, guarding my flanks.

Huh, cool, so this is something that can be done. Just.. not all the time. Gives me more options to consider which is always cool.

Thanks.

 GrimDork wrote:
Huh, that's an interesting thought. I guess that's how it is though, you see people asking for help not people proclaiming to all who will listen that this is the best list as it just won them the tournament.

I guess I'll just have to keep buying what looks cool and suss out what works best when/if I actually get to play

TBH its hard to make all around list in infinity, it all depends on missions you will be plaing.

My last list was indeed 10 model list, but only because I wanted to play without proxing and borrowing any model(wen well)

You can do a mirror 8/8 list(my friend Ariadna, cammo heavy list)....or one active one pasive(with evo/total) or suecide group with AD and some cheerleader/rem for orders, you have to find a way that siuts your style...I heard about 4 five man moderator link teams list(20 guys)....so I think this game is cool enough to have endless ways of making list

The 'all round list' is the first peek down the Infinity rabbit hole. First you try to make it. Then you come up with something workable. Then you get your ass handed to you and go looking to see if your faction has similar tricks. Then you buy 'just one more blister' to try said trick.

A few months later you're sitting on a mountain of pewter wondering what the feth happened.

Haha! And it works 'cause blisters are in the 10-30 range and each brings a difference to how a game will play out, instead of buying a 50-80 dollar tank and then realizing you really need 2-4 of them to have any effect.

Shoot, I've already got

*counts*

16 nomads including 3 sputniks, 7 haqq by way of kaplan box and ghulam blister, and 3 JSA dudes to use for a diorama. It's ridiculous! Well the diorama is gonna be a gift, so only 23 i guess On the bright side they were all gifts, or bought with amazon store credit from their rewards card. I think Icestorm will be my first actual legit purchase


So does all of the variability lead to a lot of one-sided nastiness? Like my opponent brings one of those AD2 HMG units I keep hearing about, or because I'm newer they just bring a TAG and I don't know how to counter it and the game gets wrapped in a couple of turns? Then I go research dirty nomad tricks, pick up a Zonds box, and GML him to death, only to have him pull out a caledonian volunteers horde next time?

It sounds fun, as long as it isn't always one-sided once there's a saturation point in your respective collections.

 GrimDork wrote:


So does all of the variability lead to a lot of one-sided nastiness? Like my opponent brings one of those AD2 HMG units I keep hearing about, or because I'm newer they just bring a TAG and I don't know how to counter it and the game gets wrapped in a couple of turns? Then I go research dirty nomad tricks, pick up a Zonds box, and GML him to death, only to have him pull out a caledonian volunteers horde next time?

It sounds fun, as long as it isn't always one-sided once there's a saturation point in your respective collections.

It is.... for new players and only as long as you dont learn, once you get a hold on rules and see few games and what each faction can bring, you will think of them ahead and when playing counter them with tactic and/or models.

I remember my first time introduction to 2 Total reaction zonds.....ehh...next game there was Tomcat with deplo repeater waiting for it.

Something else to remember is you don't need to take specific counters to take on units with certain tricks. The game doesn't have a rock/paper/scissors thing going on.

If your opponent wrecks you with an AD HMG unit, sure, you can go buy a remote with Total Reaction and a 360 visor to watch your back. You might come across someone using a few camo units and go an but a unit with MSV 2 and a big gun.

But then you'll make a new list without that unit because your opponent has stopped using them because you've started brining hard counters, and all of a sudden they're in his list again.

The best thing to do is figure out how you can combat those units without bringing hard counters. See an AD unit on his list when you swap lists? Deploy carefully, with all models covering each other, and look for likely landing zones. Just try to make sure if he does land, damage will be minimal before you can get some ARO shots in. Someone using camo? Learn tactics that work for you to discover them with minimal casualties.

The best advice I had starting Infinity was that you shouldn't fear anything your opponent brings. You can always find a way to tackle it, either because you have a unit by chance that's a hard counter or simply because you can overcome anything just by carefully considered strategy. And you're going to have your own hurt you can throw right back at him.

Unless it's an Avatar and his slave-Speculo, in which case you should totally fear it. But weighing in at nearly 200pts they have the right to be feared.

 -Loki- wrote:
The best thing to do is figure out how you can combat those units without bringing hard counters. See an AD unit on his list when you swap lists? Deploy carefully, with all models covering each other, and look for likely landing zones. Just try to make sure if he does land, damage will be minimal before you can get some ARO shots in. Someone using camo? Learn tactics that work for you to discover them with minimal casualties.

In the middle of some excellent advice is a bit of an oddity - you should not be handing your opponent a full copy of your list. The presence of AD or hidden deployment troops is private information, your opponent doesn't get told about them until they do something.

Obviously it's different when learning, but private info is a really important part of the game.

 IJW wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
The best thing to do is figure out how you can combat those units without bringing hard counters. See an AD unit on his list when you swap lists? Deploy carefully, with all models covering each other, and look for likely landing zones. Just try to make sure if he does land, damage will be minimal before you can get some ARO shots in. Someone using camo? Learn tactics that work for you to discover them with minimal casualties.

In the middle of some excellent advice is a bit of an oddity - you should not be handing your opponent a full copy of your list. The presence of AD or hidden deployment troops is private information, your opponent doesn't get told about them until they do something.

Obviously it's different when learning, but private info is a really important part of the game.

Well no, but when you're handed a Hassassin Bahram list, and you see 'Hassassin Ragik', you know full well you've got an AD unit dropping on you, probably with a HMG. If you see 'Hassassin Fiday', you know you've got an impersonator that's going to try to wreck your gak in your deployment zone.

Ignorance of unit types isn't really an excuse in Infinity since everyone has completely free access to browse unit types and make mental notes of which unit names have TO camo, AD deployment, Impersonation, etc. There's not really so many that it's hard to keep track of.

What on earth? Public lists won't give these details Loki. Outside of training type games you should have no idea that they have a Ragik, Fiday, or what have you until it appears on the table.

My mistake. I haven't done ITS games or tournaments of any kind (or even played against anyone outside my group), so I was unaware public lists didn't even list unit names.

Anything that does not begin the game deployed as a model on the table will not be listed.

This includes models deployed as markers (ie, camo, impersonation).

Holo1 models masquerading as some other model can appear as such on the public list.

Points costs are also not public. That helps to keep the above shenanigans discrete.

Personally, I've never seen a "public" list in my life though. We just inform each other of what the various stuff is, stats etc, rather than bother with making a public and private list.

Aha. Thank you for clarifying.

Yes, that does make it a bit more difficult to know whats coming for some skills. However, you can still plan around some of it. It may not be on the list, but you'll see the markers hit the table during deployment. Seeing camo markers, you can develop your own ways to reveal them as safely as you can if you didn't bring MSV. If you see an Impersonation marker hit the table during deployment, you know to make sure everyone is covered by other models for the inevitable brutal reveal, or try to figure out an order efficient course to reveal it yourself.

Also basic deployment methods that you will learn when starting will mitigate AD and TO shenanigans as you learn to watch your backline with grunts and cover models with each others firing arcs.

Again - nothing should be feared, but seen as a challenge to tackle.

Good things to know, I'll have to find somebody to actually play this game with me