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Hello, everyone. This is my attempt to improve the Defiler, and to open up new strategies with it. In creating this I tried to keep in mind the unit's purpose of bringing versatility to a CSM army. The two primary complaints that I've seen about the original unit are that its AV 12 armor on the front and sides is too weak to protect it, and that its weapons are too unfocused to be useful. The other complaints that I've seen are that such a large model is extremely easy to hit with blast weapons and difficult to find cover for, which compounds the issue of its mediocre armor, it attracts a lot of firepower because of its main gun, the main gun also prevents the use of some of its other weapons and makes others inaccurate, and that it's simply too expensive for what it does. I feel like I'm on the right track with these rules, but I'm not entirely sure.

To avoid any possible issues with GW should they for some reason take notice, the following rules are written in a format that merely references their material. The primary reference for these rules can be found on page 102 of Codex: Chaos Space Marines 6th Edition. Rules for the Butcher Cannon can be found in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse, and rules for the Executioner Plasma Cannon can be found in Codex: Astra Militarum.

Defiler - 195 pts

Stats - Change the front and side values to "13"

Wargear, first bullet point - Change to "Hellfire Culverin"

Options, first bullet point - Add the following: Reaper autocannon - 5 pts, Twin-linked lascannon - 20 pts, Butcher cannon - 15 pts, Twin-linked heavy bolter - free, Power fist - 5 pts.

Options, second bullet point -
Change the first option to read: "Power fist - 5 pts."
Add the following: Butcher cannon - 15 pts, Twin-linked heavy flamer - 5 pts

Options, add a fourth bullet point - "May replace any power fist with a chain fist - 10 pts." 1*

Options, add a fifth bullet point - "May replace the hellfire culverin with one of the following: ectoplasma destroyer - 20 pts, punisher gatling cannon - 15 pts, baleflamer - 25 pts, dual reaper autocannons - 10 pts" 2*

1 - When upgrading a power fist that was purchased, add that weapon's cost to that of the chain fist. For example, upgrading a weapon to a power fist, and then to a chain fist, would cost 15 pts rather than 10 pts.

2 - Dual reaper autocannons count as one weapon for all purposes.

Hellfire Culverin: R 72", STR 7, AP 3, Heavy 1, Barrage, Large Blast

Ectoplasma Destroyer: R 36", STR 8, AP 2, Heavy 3, Blast

I dunno, 145 almost feels too cheap, but that is just my first impression.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I dunno, 145 almost feels too cheap, but that is just my first impression.

I was kinda worried about that, too. I originally had it at 125 points, like the Soul Grinder, but then I realized there was nothing stopping people from taking the Defiler bare-bones for a cheap battle cannon. What would you suggest for a price?

Wait, the Soul Grinder is 125? That is absurd! Far too cheap!

Compare it to any Dreadnought equivalent short of Contemptors and weep.

Wait, I misremembered that. Looking at my Daemons codex, the Soul Grinder is 135 points. I get numbers confused sometimes. I could probably bump the Defiler to 150, but I'm uncertain about anything higher than that.

It's probably no worse than the Soulgrinder as written so it's not something I'd object to from a power-perspecctive.

However I have a real issue when a unit is written with rules that are clearly counter-productive or non-functional, and seemingly only exist because the writer forgot the rules rather than for anything fluffy. On that basis I really think there should be some change to the way a Defiler uses Ordnance because as it is, every time it fires the rest of its weapons go down to BS1 and templates become worthless.
Even if you had to raise the points a little to compensate, I really think this is a major issue to fix. Without it, the Havoc/Heavy Flamer are almost useless as options.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I really think there should be some change to the way a Defiler uses Ordnance because as it is, every time it fires the rest of its weapons go down to BS1 and templates become worthless.
Even if you had to raise the points a little to compensate, I really think this is a major issue to fix. Without it, the Havoc/Heavy Flamer are almost useless as options.

That's what I was thinking as well, which is why I included the option to take an executioner plasma cannon in place of the battle cannon. However, I realize that the battle cannon does have a lot of value in other areas besides anti-MEQ. With that said, I may have an idea:

Unyielding: After this unit fires an ordnance weapon, it may fire all other weapons at full ballistic skill.

If anyone has an alternate name, please speak up.

EDIT: I may have a different workaround to the issue of the Defiler having an Ordnance weapon; it's a weapon I call the Hellfire Culverin. It has the range of a Battle Cannon, but with one less strength, and it's Heavy rather than Ordnance. This would allow the Defiler to fire with all of its weapons at full BS, but should keep it from being OP by limiting its effectiveness against other vehicles. This is an unrefined idea, so any polite input is welcome.

I would like to hear what role you think a Defiler should have. Once I know that, I can make suggestions. Otherwise, it's all kind of random tinkering to me.

I see Defilers as monstrous spidery skittery things, smashing through terrain and approaching to squash the enemy. The heavy firepower aspect is thus secondary.

To that end, I think changing the main gun from a Battlecannon to something else that supports a moving role is a good one.

Stygian Cannon Rng:48 S:8 AP:3 Heavy 1 Large Blast

?

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
I would like to hear what role you think a Defiler should have. Once I know that, I can make suggestions. Otherwise, it's all kind of random tinkering to me.

I see Defilers as monstrous spidery skittery things, smashing through terrain and approaching to squash the enemy. The heavy firepower aspect is thus secondary.

To that end, I think changing the main gun from a Battlecannon to something else that supports a moving role is a good one.

Stygian Cannon Rng:48 S:8 AP:3 Heavy 1 Large Blast

?

I had forgotten about this thread due to real-life stuff, and managing the same thread over on The Bolter & Chainsword. Anyway, If I'm reading this right (it's pretty late over here), I think we're on the same page. The Defiler could serve either as fire support or as close-combat support, but not excelling at both in the same game. I also agree that the Defiler should be constantly on the move, if only to be a big distraction, a role in which it would excel.

One possible change that might happen is Defilers being able to take Marks. I'm trying to figure out how to make the fabled Slaughterfiend, Debaser, Desecrator, and Deceiver that many of us have read about, but never seen. Other possible changes include upgrading the hellfire culverin to a vanquisher cannon or quad heavy bolter, and the two side weapons to ectoplasma cannons or storm lasers. Regarding weapons, I'm just trying to round out its armament relative to its role, such as the vanquisher and twin-linked lascannons for busting vehicles, reapers for chewing through transports and light infantry, flamers or heavy bolters for dealing with hordes, and plasma weapons for dealing with TEQs. While there are other units for those roles, such as auto-havocs and tri-las predators, units like those two examples seem to be usually seen as budget units that may or may not get the job done.

I've been looking at the defiler myself for my own Chaos Codex Revamp project. Personally, my view of the venerable defiler is one that says that it should be capable of out-shooting the Forge Fiend or be capable of out-punishing the Mauler fiend, but not at the same time. You should be able to kit out the Defiler as a massive fire base or as a super-deadly close combat uber-monster.

With that thought in mind, here is where my musings have brought me to date:

Defiler....................... 150 points
Wargear: Twin-linked Ectoplasm Cannon
Reaper Autocannon
Twin-linked Heavy flammer
Daemonic Possession
Searchlight
Smoke Launchers

Special Rules:
Daemon
Daemonforge
Fleet
It Will Not Die

Options:
+ May replace Twin-linked Ecto-plasm Cannon with Battle Cannon....................... 25 points
+ May take up to 2 Power fists............................................................................... 10 points each
+May replace Twin-linked Flammer with one of the following:
- Havoc launcher................................................................................................... 5 points
- Power Scourge................................................................................................. 25 points
- Power Fist........................................................................................................... 5 points
+ May replace Reaper Autocannon with one of the following:
- Power Fist............................................................................................................ free
- Twin-linked Heavy Bolter................................................................................... free
- twin-linked Lascannon..................................................................................... 20 points