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The rule for FNP states:

"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound"

Now would this be resolved before or after other rules that trigger from an unsaved wound, with the following wording:

"Immediately after an unsaved wound has been caused"

Would the order be Hit, Wound, Armor Save, FNP, Event #2

Or Hit, Wound, Armor Save, Event #2, FNP

Now my view is that "when" would cause FNP to go before, the wording causing it to happen at the same time as the wound becomes an unsaved wound, whereas the second event would come only after the wound has been unsaved.

Others have said that "immediately" would cause event #2 to happen first, directly after the armor save is failed, and then you would roll for FNP afterword.

Now I am not arguing if the second still occurs if the wound comes up saved, or if the effects still apply if the second is passed, specifically the order of the events.

The wording of your question is somewhat confusing.

 Random Dude wrote:
The wording of your question is somewhat confusing.

What specifically? I apologize for that

Makes perfect sense to me. The Helfrost Cannon shot at a FNP multi wound model is a good example. The Helfrost requires a Toughness check to be made after an unsaved wound and if the check is failed, the model is removed from play.

So is the order to hit - to wound - Armor Save - FNP - Helfrost rule, or does Helfrost rule come before FNP check since the would is still in flux about if it's an unsaved wound yet. After an Armor save it's an unsaved wound, but FNP makes it count as saved if passed. So what's the order there? I'm also curious cause I'm bound to come across this now.

Edit: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/608094.page
That could help us both. Big discussion about it that I hadn't seen at the time of posting.

Well you say "whereas the second wording would come only after the wound has been unsaved." I'm confused because "unsave" isn't a word. I don't have the BRB on me right now, so I guess I can't be much help anyway.

You should also mention that we have a rule to tell us how to handle when 2 things happen at the same time. say 2 events triggering off a unsaved wound.

If you're going to make a poll, you should at least address both sides and not just state your side of the argument.

Bolded and underlined for emphasis


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Makes perfect sense to me. The Helfrost Cannon shot at a FNP multi wound model is a good example. The Helfrost requires a Toughness check to be made after an unsaved wound and if the check is failed, the model is removed from play.

So is the order to hit - to wound - Armor Save - FNP - Helfrost rule, or does Helfrost rule come before FNP check since the would is still in flux about if it's an unsaved wound yet. After an Armor save it's an unsaved wound, but FNP makes it count as saved if passed. So what's the order there? I'm also curious cause I'm bound to come across this now.

Edit: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/608094.page
That could help us both. Big discussion about it that I hadn't seen at the time of posting.

Thats the basis of the question, I'm there as well.

 Random Dude wrote:
Well you say "whereas the second wording would come only after the wound has been unsaved." I'm confused because "unsave" isn't a word. I don't have the BRB on me right now, so I guess I can't be much help anyway.

Come on Dude... If you don't have anything to say, you don't need to say anything. This is something like the third post I've seen today from you effectively saying 'I don't know the topic well enough to actually provide an answer'. Replying isn't mandatory. And an 'unsaved wound' is a thing, regardless of if it's a word or not.

FNP is not a save, so you make the Toughness test before your FNP roll. FNP is not listed as one of the types of Saves. Even when FNP negates a Wound it's still an unsaved Wound for rules Purposes.

 Zagman wrote:
FNP is not a save, so you make the Toughness test before your FNP roll. FNP is not listed as one of the types of Saves. Even when FNP negates a Wound it's still an unsaved Wound for rules Purposes.

FNP says to treat the wound as saved

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
FNP is not a save, so you make the Toughness test before your FNP roll. FNP is not listed as one of the types of Saves. Even when FNP negates a Wound it's still an unsaved Wound for rules Purposes.

FNP says to treat the wound as saved

Off topic guys. Only here for the order the rolls are made, whether or not the extra effects is an ongoing thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/608094.page

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
FNP is not a save, so you make the Toughness test before your FNP roll. FNP is not listed as one of the types of Saves. Even when FNP negates a Wound it's still an unsaved Wound for rules Purposes.

FNP says to treat the wound as saved

Off topic guys. Only here for the order the rolls are made, whether or not the extra effects is an ongoing thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/608094.page

It's on topic. The order and if the extra effects happen are the same question.
This is a duplicate thread.

rigeld2 wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
FNP is not a save, so you make the Toughness test before your FNP roll. FNP is not listed as one of the types of Saves. Even when FNP negates a Wound it's still an unsaved Wound for rules Purposes.

FNP says to treat the wound as saved

Off topic guys. Only here for the order the rolls are made, whether or not the extra effects is an ongoing thread here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/608094.page

It's on topic. The order and if the extra effects happen are the same question.
This is a duplicate thread.

It is relevant in the other thread. For this i only wish to see peoples views on the order, not if any effects occur or any other such events. The other thread is based around it, but the topic is if they stack, not the specific order.

But why does the order matter?
What are you trying to get out of this thread that is different from the other one (where order is also being discussed, and has been addressed repeatedly)?

FNP: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state that 'no saves of any kind are allowed', for example those inflicted by Perils of the Warp).

Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks (pg 163) or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule.

Roll a D6 each time an unsaved Wound is suffered.... On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved.

pg 36 Types of Saving Throws: ... If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a Wound.

pg 35 Take Saves & Remove Casualties: The model get to make a saving throw, if it has one. If it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty.

FNP specifically says it is not a saving throw but then it refers to it as a save in the following paragraph. (see underlined). Bad rules are bad but we'll try to interpret this anyway. Letsl treat it as not a save.

The last rule I quoted, about removing casualties, is the important one. That is the basic rule that FNP must interrupt to function. Things like ES only work if the model is still alive AFTER this... "If it fails, reduce that model's Wounds by 1. If the model is reduced to 0 Wounds, remove it as a casualty." The rulebook never describes or defines 'unsaved wound'. We must assume that it is after the above general rule resolves because when else would it be? FNP interrupts this, otherwise it wouldn't function.

Now the question is... do things like ES also interrupt this? Do you, RAW, need to roll for ES before removing casualties or do you do it after removing casualties?
Is the wound 'unsaved' when the casualty is removed or somewhere between reducing the wound by 1 and removing the casualty? RAW isn't clear.

HIWPI: If a model's wounds are reduced by 1, then it has suffered an unsaved wound. At that moment, if it has 0 wounds, it is removed as a casualty before anything else triggers. Therefore FNP must be rolled before you can determine if an unsaved wound is suffered because if it is suffered before FNP is rolled then FNP does nothing. RAW, it's possible to say that FNP does in fact do nothing because of their poor wording. I choose to believe that FNP is rolled before the wound is actually suffered, therefore things like ES do not trigger until FNP is rolled, no matter how badly worded FNP is. This effectively makes FNP a save that does not count as a save for rules that say 'ignore saves'... which is kind of what they're trying to tell us in the rule. It's a save but not a save.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Edit: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/608094.page
That could help us both. Big discussion about it that I hadn't seen at the time of posting.

Please see the above thread for more on this topic- thanks!