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For a moment we will not focus on his considerable cc prowess but rather on his 2+ unit DtW. We can easily ally him to a Daemon force and get strong psychic superiority all game long. You will be denied and I will cast every turn. Does the idea have merit? How good is an almost gauranteed DtW each phase in 7ed? Is he worth a second look now?

You only get to use his 2+ DtW when he (or his unit) is being targeted by a psychic power. So they just won't target him for anything and he will have no effect on blessing and conjurations.

His unit and him get a 2+ DtW - nothing about the targeting in 7ed - you can use DtW to deny anything cast

Read how deny the witch works. It says that the unit targeted get to DtW, and if no one is the target the opponent rolls DtW.

Also Kharn's rule is clear that its 2+ on their DtW rolls, not on DtW in general.

While still good, its not as good as it used to be, as you can only DtW as long as you have warp charges, and khorne lists do not tend to have extra warp charges lying around.

Read how deny the witch works. It says that the unit targeted get to DtW, and if no one is the target the opponent rolls DtW.

Also Kharn's rule is clear that its 2+ on their DtW rolls, not on DtW in general.

You can DtW now on any psychic power. I have read 7ed rules. And Kharn's power does not mention anything about targeting his squad - that was 'assumed' in 6ed. It just says "Kharn and his squad always pass their DtW roll on a 2+". In 7ed you roll DtW on any power cast. Obviously this might need a FaQ but as it stands I can DtW anything.

While still good, its not as good as it used to be, as you can only DtW as long as you have warp charges, and khorne lists do not tend to have extra warp charges lying around.

Even at 1500 I can dual CAD and fit in at least two Lvl 3 Sorcerer and depending on what I want three.

Kharn does not deny blessings or maledictions / witchfires targeted at any unit but his own. Re-read how denial works in relation to targeting units with psychic powers.


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 felixcat wrote:

His unit and him get a 2+ DtW - nothing about the targeting in 7ed - you can use DtW to deny anything cast

No, I'm afraid you are incorrect.

As others have mentioned, Deny the Witch is only affected by modifiers in a unit you control IFF the unit is targeted by a witchfire or malediction.

Warp Charges harnessed for Blessings are only ever denied on a (unless there's a very specific rule that specifically goes against this rule) and when a malediction/witchfire is used, only the specific unit targeted can provide a modifier to your DtW roll.

Kharn is cool, but he's not an army-wide "NO PSYKERS" mega-buff. I'm sorry but you're looking for an easter egg that doesn't exist.

DoW

Yeah, they speak the truth. Blessings are the suxxors to deny, but technically you have a higher failure rate now? I dunno. I dislike the way Buffhammer works on the whole, but if Kharn did that, he'd be in so many list your head would implode.

Doh. Well he is still good but hardly broken. So much for that idea.

Kharn is one of the few things in this game that can charge an Imperial Knight and defeat it

 Kaime wrote:
Kharn is one of the few things in this game that can charge an Imperial Knight and defeat it

His hitting power is just extreme, especially if warlord. 7 WS7 S7 I5 AP2 Armourbane attacks that always hit on a 2+ (Rerolls if warlord) will absolutely demolish anything short of a Wraithknight or something with a good armour save. Even when charged he gets 6 S6 attacks, which still is very strong.

I have seen him rip apart Dread mobs single-handedly on the charge. His fragility is his downfall, unfortunately, as he is easier to kill than even a baseline captain.

Take Be'Lakor and just have him running around in a LR with some Possessed from Crimson Slaughter. Invisibility those suckers and just watch as things get deleted from the board. Hell, might as well try your luck with Multi Assaults and drag a few dozen models in there with them. You'll probably kill them all anyways

 Ashiraya wrote:
His fragility is his downfall, unfortunately, as he is easier to kill than even a baseline captain.

35 cultists make many chaos lords tougher.

They also doom him to a 6'' move and 6'' run for the entire game.

I give him a 9-beserker guard and stuff 'em in a Land Raider.

Sure, if you like all your eggs in one basket.

I don't really see how making him wait at least three turns to get into combat (sans some lucky infiltration fun) by ground-pounding him with cultists is a superior alternative. Every turn that a melee unit isn't getting stuck in is a turn that you're wasting the points you spent on putting it in your list- and Kharne is a little expensive to be using as a defensive/zoning weapon, imo.

That basket is still AV14 in an edition where it's extremely difficult to one-shot a vehicle, and can move fast enough to put him in charge range by turn 2.

Kharn is just not that good in my opinion. My chapter master with a thunder hammer and Shield Eternal kills him every time. That's if he even reaches. A lot of times, my lascannons get rid of him, once my sternguards and tanks get rid of his berzerkers.

The point is he is too squishy. I would honestly take Abaddon instead. He's got Eternal Warrior. toughness 5, and tons of attacks. He is hard to handle. I personally love seeing my chapter master and Abaddon go at it. Its fun to watch!

I'm not saying Kharn is a complete waste, He can kill all kinds of marines by the dozens, if played correctly. I just think in the end, tougher HQs win the battle.

for 15 more points, you can get zhufor the impaler, from IA apoc, who is a pretty rockin khorne ternimator lord in the same vein as kharn.

 Ultramarine vet wrote:
Kharn is just not that good in my opinion. My chapter master with a thunder hammer and Shield Eternal kills him every time. That's if he even reaches. A lot of times, my lascannons get rid of him, once my sternguards and tanks get rid of his berzerkers.

The point is he is too squishy. I would honestly take Abaddon instead. He's got Eternal Warrior. toughness 5, and tons of attacks. He is hard to handle. I personally love seeing my chapter master and Abaddon go at it. Its fun to watch!

I'm not saying Kharn is a complete waste, He can kill all kinds of marines by the dozens, if played correctly. I just think in the end, tougher HQs win the battle.

You're trying to compare a 230+ point model to a 160 MEQ Sure, Chapter Masters are the lords of plebs everywhere and got buffed to 4Ws (Thanks GW, nice kick in the nuts to all the CSM players running lords!) And yeah EW is easy to get with Shield Eternal because, again, GW. But Kharn is slaughtering things a lot faster, plus with Armorbane he becomes a Titan killer. So, not really sure about these comparisons when you try to consider the fact that he's supposed to be played smartly. If your opponents are saying to themselves "I should charge your Chapter Master who will obviously murder me" I don't think you're playing competent opponents =/ No offense to them of course, just something I don't personally see within the War Gaming community. Kinda sounds like someones intentionally throwing a game actually lol

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 Ultramarine vet wrote:
Kharn is just not that good in my opinion. My chapter master with a thunder hammer and Shield Eternal kills him every time. That's if he even reaches. A lot of times, my lascannons get rid of him, once my sternguards and tanks get rid of his berzerkers.

The point is he is too squishy. I would honestly take Abaddon instead. He's got Eternal Warrior. toughness 5, and tons of attacks. He is hard to handle. I personally love seeing my chapter master and Abaddon go at it. Its fun to watch!

I'm not saying Kharn is a complete waste, He can kill all kinds of marines by the dozens, if played correctly. I just think in the end, tougher HQs win the battle.

You're trying to compare a 230+ point model to a 160 MEQ Sure, Chapter Masters are the lords of plebs everywhere and got buffed to 4Ws (Thanks GW, nice kick in the nuts to all the CSM players running lords!) And yeah EW is easy to get with Shield Eternal because, again, GW. But Kharn is slaughtering things a lot faster, plus with Armorbane he becomes a Titan killer. So, not really sure about these comparisons when you try to consider the fact that he's supposed to be played smartly. If your opponents are saying to themselves "I should charge your Chapter Master who will obviously murder me" I don't think you're playing competent opponents =/ No offense to them of course, just something I don't personally see within the War Gaming community. Kinda sounds like someones intentionally throwing a game actually lol

No. I make sure my chapter master confronts Kharn. Its not about charging him to his death, I never said that. I keep my chapter master right in the middle of my force with an assault terminator retinue, so that he can reach anything that gets near my troops. It always works for me. Kharn will sometimes eat a tactical squad, but its usually an acceptable loss.

Like I said, he's not a terrible choice, I just think its points that can be better spent elsewhere. If Kharn works for you though, thats great! Keep him in your force org.

GW really needs to give Chaos Space Marines drop pods. Or at least, the equivalent. I know they have them in the fluff.

Well... He did slaughter a planet overnight didn't he? That says something.

Kharn is designed for taking out large swathes of enemy chaff and vehicles, not buffed up deathstars. Put him in a Land Raider and zoom past things he doesn't need to be fighting. If you're worried about rogue chapter masters swooping in on him, give the Raider an escort of spawn to keep them busy.

Also, throw Kharn at invisible units for laughs.

 Badablack wrote:
Kharn is designed for taking out large swathes of enemy chaff and vehicles, not buffed up deathstars.

Kharn actually does a very good job of dismantling deathstars.

He doesn't kill the whole thing by himself in one go, but do a good job taking it down to manageable in one assault phase. Then he stands a good chance of being killed. Considering he's 1/4 the cost of most death stars, that's a pretty good deal.

Charge him on something expensive with weak or no invuln save(honor guard, terminators(tactical not assault)). if he gets the charge that is 7 honor guards dead, before they get to strike back, and he basically paid off his points cost, but keep him THE HELL AWAY from S8 and the challenges! IMO the 9 berzerkers + kharn in a LR is the best option, let the champion take the challenge, while Kharn kills stuff. In competitive games jugger lord(Lord with MoK axe of blind fury, juggernaut of khorne sigil of corruption and bolt pistol, possibly veterans of the long war if you play VS space marines is better) on the charge he dishes out up to 13(!!) S7AP2 attacks,while kharn hits 7 S7AP2, but with WS5, not like it matters, you still hit everything on 4+ at WORST, and you won't get insta gibbed if you get slapped by a power fist(juggernaut gives him T5)

 McGibs wrote:
for 15 more points, you can get zhufor the impaler, from IA apoc, who is a pretty rockin khorne ternimator lord in the same vein as kharn.

Yea but Zhufor's rules are hot trash

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Badablack wrote:
Kharn is designed for taking out large swathes of enemy chaff and vehicles, not buffed up deathstars.

Kharn actually does a very good job of dismantling deathstars.

He doesn't kill the whole thing by himself in one go, but do a good job taking it down to manageable in one assault phase. Then he stands a good chance of being killed. Considering he's 1/4 the cost of most death stars, that's a pretty good deal.

Kharn's job is arguably killing anything without T8+ or a good invulnerable save, as well as any vehicle, but preferably still less horde-y than guardsmen or gretchin.

He suffers from being a fragile T4 3+ melee unit in a game where shooting is superior outside of the very best assault units.