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I have been poking around with the black templars back ground lore and game stats and Ive found myself really intrigued by them. I love there crusader squads being able to somwhat adapt to CC and take landraider crusaders as DT even though they can get very expensive. I dont like how they dont have any librarians but they were meh with normal marine armies. I have tried to make a few lists with Black templars and have found that either everything is super expensive or doesnt utilize the crusader squads to the full extent. Any help with Black Templar tactics would be appreciated!

I'll start off by warning that CT: BT is one of the worst ones in the book.

That said, Crusader Squads get both a heavy and a special weapon at 5 men strong, allowing for the creation of so-called "lasplas squads", with a lascannon and a plasma gun, sitting on a backfield objective. At only 105 points a pop, this is very worthwhile.

With the recent buffs to challenges, BT Chapter Masters and/or Captains are pretty scary. No other CT puts out the same punch as the boys in Black do in Challenges. The main issue is that your opponent can just choose to not accept the Challenge in the first place, but that usually leads to lower Ld for the enemy, which leads to more opportunities to Sweeping Advance with Crusader.

The main issue really is the same that all non-bike melee Marines have: mobility. Without putting melee units in a Land Raider of some kind there really isn't any good way to get into melee in an expedient manner, making shooting superior to melee. Adding to this, the intrinsic flaws of melee (tarpitting, sacrificial speed bumps, wiping the enemy during the wrong turn etc.) further limits the power of the army.

That said, as you correctly note, DT LRCs can cause some havoc, and when fighting other Marines the double Power Weapons in each squad can help add a little oomph.

I would say i saw the most competitive BT list over at frontline gaming, which was 4x5 man crusader squads in land raider cursaders and 3x vindicators. Thats a wall of av13 and 14 with 4 objective secured land raiders and army wide adamantium will.

But dont let dakka get you down. If you want a fun black tide list, go for it. Cram as many crusaders into as many land raiders as you can, stick helbrecht in in with one of them, and call his army wide waaagh once youve reached enemy lines. Not the best thing in the world, but youll win more games than you lose, and itll be fun as hell.

I run BT just because of the fluff. They are by far my favorite chapter of the space marines. In fact, if it werent for the Black Templar I wouldnt play space marines at all.

That being said, I usually run 3 of the 5-man las/plas squads in almost all of my lists. I dont own any rhinos so I just stick them in terrain, but if I did own rhinos I think they would be great in there.

To make use of our close combat abilities I also make sure to get a beatstick Chapter Master with 2+/3++ and stick him in either a land raider or a drop pod to get him close to the enemy. I like to run 3 drop pods with the chapter master in the third one. You mentioned it being expensive to get them to be effective, and you are right. It's hard to get that Black Templar feel, while still being competitive if you are playing under 2,000 points. 2,000 points is where the Black Templar players belong.

Also if you want a force that feels like a black templar force get an honor guard, a chapter master and a chaplain and stick them in a drop pod. They come down face to face with the enemy, still get bolter shots even with their power weapons, and then tear up anything in melee, rerolling failed to hit in the first round.

I was thinking something along those lines myself for my BT allies I want to build. While facesmash crusader squads in LRC for delivery sounds fun I doubt I could pull it off w8thout compromising my normal guard list.

What do you think of the before stated CM and honor guard in Drop pod with deepstriking scion support for back field camper busting? Or would the aforementioned CC crusaders in pods be better?

Crusader squads would be better in pods IMO, because you can deliver something that might actually make opponent to reconsider his deployment(not like bolters are gonna scare anything that is better AV than 10) Put the Honor guard in LR(Crusader/redeemer) and give them the Chapter banner. Expensive but worth it, since you don't want them to die to plasma guns and lascannons. You can always run them in storm raven to save some points(CCA 50?) and put an ironclad Dreadnought in the back of storm raven. But yeah, the BT Chapter tactics are crappy, surpassed only by Minotaurs in their crappiness Chaptermaster with TDA,TH/ Shield Eternal has 4 S8AP2 attacks(5 on charge, 6 with chapter banner and charge) with concussive with rerolls to hit in challenge from CT which makes him the most killy HQ with that set-up, which is extremely durable 2+/3++ EW. But he has to compete with clan raukaan CM: He is usually outfitted with TH/LC Artificer armor, gorgon's chain and bike, followed by cheap HQ which unlocks command squad(libby with ML2) and command squad gets bikes and apothecary. Without explaining the rules, you get T5 chapter master with 2+/3++,with apothecary and good warlord trait roll granting extra FNP, for a 3+ FNP on full wounds and EW, i had once played VS tau, and saved 60(!!) wounds with CHAPTER MASTER ONLY!! The only con to that sick build is that when you lose wounds, on first unsaved wound you lose the +1 FNP roll from the chain, then you lose EW, and then you downgrade the 3+ + to 4++. But if you pass the IWND roll, you get back the previous level of the gorgon's chain.
BACK TO TOPIC: The BT are really fun for friendly games, awesome crusading CC oriented marines FTW. Except if you show up in a competitive game with CC marines, you are gonna get wiped really soon. And their competitive options, while not bad, are BETTER with other chapter tactics. For example, Imperial fists devastator centurions get tank hunters, Iron hands centurions get 6+ FNP on top of 2+ and the sarge has IWND. Land raider wall would be better with Iron hands, since they get IWND. Bikes are better with white scars, while assault marines and Vanguard Veterans are better with Raven guard Chapter tactics. Lasplas crusader squads, and objective secured LRC's don't really compensate for that handicap
Hope that helps

What about MSU in LRCs?

Nasty build indeed, but nowhere near as strong as other stuff currently on the competitive scene. just too low model count :(

I just thought of this, but since the BT would be allies for my IG, I could technically stick a Ministorium Priest with any of the groups for hatred from the Zealot USR and and the goodness that is Warhymns. Rerolls for failed hits (first round on the assault only!) and armor/invuln saves or wound rolls for only 25pts sound good to anyone else?
AND you can have THREE of them, stick one in a blob and send the other two to the BTs is what I'm thinking

 Ir0njack wrote:
I just thought of this, but since the BT would be allies for my IG, I could technically stick a Ministorium Priest with any of the groups for hatred from the Zealot USR and and the goodness that is Warhymns. Rerolls for failed hits (first round on the assault only!) and armor/invuln saves or wound rolls for only 25pts sound good to anyone else?
AND you can have THREE of them, stick one in a blob and send the other two to the BTs is what I'm thinking

Its a good plan competitively.
Fluff-wise, I struggle with seeing how the mortal preacher man inspires transhuman zealots.

True, though I was only looking at it from a competitive standpoint at the time. In some of the fluff there are times where even the spacemarines are inspired by the acts of mortals, though it is rare. I could see the already zealous BT getting whipped into righteous fury at the sight of some mortal preacher charging the enemy with just his plasma gun and the litanies of hate to protect him. Normal marines not so much, but the BT and a particularly fiery member of the ecclesiarchy, I could see it happening.

If you play maelstrom, Objective secured LRCs is a HUGE pain.

Adamantium will is nothing to sneeze at either, against certain enemies.

Really, BT excel where their LRCs can excel.

I ran BT on bikes as allies when the SM book dropped. Basically have the beatstick chapter master on a bike with his 5 bike riding friends (who brought two grav guns). Their job was to deliver him to glorious single combat.

It wasn't the most competitive, but it sure was fun, and it did let me run mounted knights in 40k.

2-4 crusader squads in lrc
3 av 13 heavies
Imperial knight
Typhoons to taste.

 Ir0njack wrote:
I just thought of this, but since the BT would be allies for my IG, I could technically stick a Ministorium Priest with any of the groups for hatred from the Zealot USR and and the goodness that is Warhymns. Rerolls for failed hits (first round on the assault only!) and armor/invuln saves or wound rolls for only 25pts sound good to anyone else?
AND you can have THREE of them, stick one in a blob and send the other two to the BTs is what I'm thinking

THat is what i did last apocalypse game
7 hammernators, with ministorum priest, in the end, Terminator sargeant with TH/SS beated up Zhufor(!!)

5 initiates with 5 neophytes in a LRC is a pretty strong setup, particularly with power maul on the sword brother, a power sword on an initiate and flamer on a neophyte. Add Helbrecht into the list and youve got an army that can reliably assault in a big turn when needed.

neophytes can't take special weapons, they can only pick shotguns or CCWs (and bolters?)

 Hashbeth wrote:
If you play maelstrom, Objective secured LRCs is a HUGE pain.

Adamantium will is nothing to sneeze at either, against certain enemies.

Really, BT excel where their LRCs can excel.

Well said, might as well treat super scoring LRCs as part of Black Templars Chapter Tactic.