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Hi there i was just curious about Grey Knights in the tabletop and was wondering if they were any good i want to build a space Marine army and its between GK and BT and i cant decide which to chooser

We're getting a new codex in 2 weeks, so wait for opinions until then.

Grey Knights are going to get a new codex very soon so I'd hold off until then.

As for which to choose, I can only speak for GKs. If you choose GK your army will have a lower model count than most other armies but every model will be awesome (they also have fancy model kits). GKs heavily use psychic powers to their advantage and are gifted with the ability to cast sanctic powers without suffering perils on a double like other armies. They're also the only Space Marine army that can get Dreadknights.

BT from what I remember while playing against them are anti-psychers. They're not as specialized as GKs but they have all the Space Marine goodies that GKs can't get (like that little flyer, predators, vindicators and thunderfire cannons?). Of course that last bit could change with the new codex.

Yup, wait for the new codex to get good opinions, BUT...

The current Space Marine codex is solid and very versatile. You can customize just about every aspect of your army using special characters and the variety of plastic kits available is ridiculous. I play Grey Knights, but I would choose Space Marines over them in a heartbeat if I was worried about competetiveness and utility on the tabletop.

I heard that there were no new units coming out with the new codex. But IDK

No matter what happens...the question comes down to:

Do you want to play an elitest style army with fewer models (higher damage output/model) than your opponent or do you want more generic marines with access to more toys?

 ductvader wrote:
No matter what happens...the question comes down to:

Do you want to play an elitest style army with fewer models (higher damage output/model) than your opponent or do you want more generic marines with access to more toys?

It goes much deeper than this.

Think of Black Templars as a kid who runs cross country in high school and his parents divorce. His brother goes to war. His Granddad dies. His life is crumbling and so are his grades as a result of these problems, now college looks impossible. What does he do? He just starts running one day, and keeps running. And keeps running. Tears run down his eyes, he doesn't know what to do but run, because running is what he does.

Black Templars are the same but in a gothic sci-fy setting. The emperor is dead and so is Dorn. In their grief they embark on an eternal crusade for the glory of the emperor because that is what they do and damn when we experience shock and grief of this level all we have are our instincts.

The Grey Knights, they are much more shrouded in mystery. What we do know is that these Knights of the Imperium have little humanity in them for they have been conditioned to abandon their humanity so that they may become an unbreakable aegis for Man kind. To save mankind, they abandon their humanity! It is a noble sacrifice for they not only lay down their lives but also never know what it means to be a man. Love, family, sex, friends, anger, lust, many emotions and desires are wiped from their mind so that they may be un-taintable.


Lore is of utmost importance!

 changerofways wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
No matter what happens...the question comes down to:

Do you want to play an elitest style army with fewer models (higher damage output/model) than your opponent or do you want more generic marines with access to more toys?

It goes much deeper than this.

Think of Black Templars as a kid who runs cross country in high school and his parents divorce. His brother goes to war. His Granddad dies. His life is crumbling and so are his grades as a result of these problems, now college looks impossible. What does he do? He just starts running one day, and keeps running. And keeps running. Tears run down his eyes, he doesn't know what to do but run, because running is what he does.

Black Templars are the same but in a gothic sci-fy setting. The emperor is dead and so is Dorn. In their grief they embark on an eternal crusade for the glory of the emperor because that is what they do and damn when we experience shock and grief of this level all we have are our instincts.

The Grey Knights, they are much more shrouded in mystery. What we do know is that these Knights of the Imperium have little humanity in them for they have been conditioned to abandon their humanity so that they may become an unbreakable aegis for Man kind. To save mankind, they abandon their humanity! It is a noble sacrifice for they not only lay down their lives but also never know what it means to be a man. Love, family, sex, friends, anger, lust, many emotions and desires are wiped from their mind so that they may be un-taintable.


Lore is of utmost importance!

K

I would say wait on the new codex to buy some units(since the Power armor grey knights are gonna have a slight discount). But I would definatly go grey knights personally unless you like BT better

yeah I'd go grey knights. but I just like the grey knights better. don't ask me why

Well, I have a GK army (5000 pts) and will not buy anything but the codex.
I expect the new codex to be a fix of the current one. Nothing more.

Wait until new codex to get a good opinion? WORST ADVISE EVER.

Wait until the new codex has been out for 6 months and THEN look at the opinions because either way people are going to cry because 'stuff changed'.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I have a GK army (5000 pts) and will not buy anything but the codex.
I expect the new codex to be a fix of the current one. Nothing more.

This.
The new book will just wrap the FAQs into the codex and maybe create a psychic table. Just hoping that Grand Strategy stays put.

If the pull the Inquisitorial elements and all characters without models the codex is really thin, guys.

Three elites, two fast attack, two troops, three heavy? It would be a mistake to just leave the codex as is with the FAQs bundled in, I would bet they'll at least add in some more basic marine options.

Sormtalon, Thunderfire cannon, Ironclad Dreadnought, a few other "safe" choices with a Psy-wargear or two and call it a day.

Adding those would be a kick in the face to vanilla players.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Adding those would be a kick in the face to vanilla players.

Adding them would be a kick in the face to GK players. It completely defies GK ideology. Except the Ironclad.

I never use the inquisitorial units anyways. Maybe a Malleus Terminator every once in a while...



With this so-called reduced deepstrike scatter, I am very pleased with an update to bring GKs in line with the game.


Some kind of Interceptor Pyschic Power and Skyfire Psycannons would be a nice addition though.

Stircrazy wrote:
Hi there i was just curious about Grey Knights in the tabletop and was wondering if they were any good i want to build a space Marine army and its between GK and BT and i cant decide which to chooser

Grey Knights are a more elite army and will always be outnumbered by everyone, but that does mean you will have to buy fewer models than everyone else. They're also the best anti-psyker faction in the game because they generate so many Warp Dice. Even out vehicles generate Warp Dice. In most of my lists it averages out to about a Warp Charge for every 150 points, without using Inquisition nonsense (2 acolytes and a Psyker for 18 points).

But I would caution that you roll fewer dice, so a few bad dice rolls can ruin a strategy really easily.

katfude wrote:
We're getting a new codex in 2 weeks, so wait for opinions until then.

Where did you read that? Belloflostsouls.net doesn't predict us (Grey Knights) getting a new codex until at least March of next year. I'd love to get a new codex soon that brings point costs down and maybe brings in some new units.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Adding those would be a kick in the face to vanilla players.

Not adding them (or equivalent new units) would be a kick in the face to Grey Knight players. The Grey Knights are out-ranged by almost everyone unless they bring Psy-riflemen, or Lascannons (which drastically reduces the already small number of shots they have). Purifiers' Cleansing Flame is really the only anti-hoard attack we have because we are too outnumbered to be able to counter them with firepower alone, and a couple units locked in tarpit close combats constitutes a significant percentage of the Grey Knight army.

ForeverARookie wrote:
Purifiers' Cleansing Flame is really the only anti-hoard attack we have because we are too outnumbered to be able to counter them with firepower alone, and a couple units locked in tarpit close combats constitutes a significant percentage of the Grey Knight army.

Have you met Stormbolters?

Storm bolters, widely available orbital bombardments, dread knights, psilencers. Not to mention that 2-5 point halberds make GK infinitely better in assaults than vanilla.

They don't need access to three vanilla - exclusive units. Stealing identity from another codex isn't the answer to updating their own one.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Stealing identity from another codex isn't the answer to updating their own one.

There's a reason we don't run around with melta guns.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
They don't need access to three vanilla - exclusive units. Stealing identity from another codex isn't the answer to updating their own one.

IIRC GK are the only marine army sans Vindicators, Whirlwinds and Predators. They certainly would add some utility IMHO, and (just asking) is there any reliable AT in the codex outside of OB and Doomfist DKs? I Would you be opposed to Tri-Las Preds or Vindis?

 ace101 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
They don't need access to three vanilla - exclusive units. Stealing identity from another codex isn't the answer to updating their own one.

IIRC GK are the only marine army sans Vindicators, Whirlwinds and Predators. They certainly would add some utility IMHO, and (just asking) is there any reliable AT in the codex outside of OB and Doomfist DKs? I Would you be opposed to Tri-Las Preds or Vindis?

Predators and vindicators, I am not opposed to. Those have homes I'm all other power armor books.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Storm bolters, widely available orbital bombardments, dread knights, psilencers. Not to mention that 2-5 point halberds make GK infinitely better in assaults than vanilla.

They don't need access to three vanilla - exclusive units. Stealing identity from another codex isn't the answer to updating their own one.

I like Storm Bolters, but they aren't enough to counter swarms of Orks or Tyranids. Orbital Bombardments are limited to Grand Masters and Techmarines, so they're using up valuable HQ and Elite Slots. Dreadknights are usually the shiniest thing on the board and eat all of the oponent's fire the first turn until they drop, meaning they aren't reliably good anti-hoard. Psilencers have no AP and only 6 shots, so mathematically they are no better than the other weapons unless you are shooting at a high toughness Daemon (a highly specific scenario).

Cleansing Flame can be fired out of a Rhino and hits every enemy unit within 9" for 2D6 hits with AP4 and Soul Blaze, making it much more reliable than the other options you presented.

Halberds make Grey Knights I6 AP 3, which is good vs Space Marines, but less of an issue than only having only 1-2 attacks per model (5 models base per unit) against a hoard of 20 or more models, especially since you still have to roll to-hit, and to-wound.

So a 5-man Purifier Squad is 120 points, that gives 10 attacks, they hit at best on a 3+. Averages to about 6-7 hits. To Wound on Toughness 3 passes on a 3+.
They will deal on average 4 wounds per turn in close combat to the average tarpit. Assuming they somehow never have a casualty, that would still take them 5 turns of close combat to eat through one unit of 20 models. And if the Dreadknight is locked in close combat, he can only kill up to 4 models per turn (even if they're just Warp Zombies).

The big picture combines the options presented. Each in a vacuum of course will under perform. Now when you look at five purifiers shelling with storm bolters, whatever special weapon they decided to tote (if any), then charge or over watch and receive the charge that wound count doubles or triples. Suddenly twenty models become ten before they ever get to swing and have to hope they're fearless or can put enough wounds back on the purifiers.

And AP- high ROF guns are tailor made to kill hordes. 5+ or 6+ saves means a 6 shot ap - gun kills 2-3 models.

And I forget the flamers GK can take, and buy +1 str for. Interceptors with double flamers are a thing. So all these options, combined with above average assault capability and psychic support, cement for me that GK don't need the long ranged horde killing power of a thunder fire. Take Whirlwinds if you must, but taking a vanilla - exclusive weapon to fill a gap that I'm not convinced will exist after price adjustments does not seem the correct course of action.

 ace101 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
They don't need access to three vanilla - exclusive units. Stealing identity from another codex isn't the answer to updating their own one.

IIRC GK are the only marine army sans Vindicators, Whirlwinds and Predators. They certainly would add some utility IMHO, and (just asking) is there any reliable AT in the codex outside of OB and Doomfist DKs? I Would you be opposed to Tri-Las Preds or Vindis?

Hammers, Psycannons, S5 Stormbolters, and just plain old Hammerhand.

Granted, this doesn't work so well against anything with Rear Armor above 10...but that's less common.



Psyflemans are also unfortunately common.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
The big picture combines the options presented. Each in a vacuum of course will under perform. Now when you look at five purifiers shelling with storm bolters, whatever special weapon they decided to tote (if any), then charge or over watch and receive the charge that wound count doubles or triples. Suddenly twenty models become ten before they ever get to swing and have to hope they're fearless or can put enough wounds back on the purifiers.

And AP- high ROF guns are tailor made to kill hordes. 5+ or 6+ saves means a 6 shot ap - gun kills 2-3 models.

And I forget the flamers GK can take, and buy +1 str for. Interceptors with double flamers are a thing. So all these options, combined with above average assault capability and psychic support, cement for me that GK don't need the long ranged horde killing power of a thunder fire. Take Whirlwinds if you must, but taking a vanilla - exclusive weapon to fill a gap that I'm not convinced will exist after price adjustments does not seem the correct course of action.

You forget to take into account the number of shots lost on the To-hit rolls, and that Overwatch only hits on a 6.

The Psilencer is 6 shots, Normally hitting on a 3+ means 4 hits on average. It's S 4, so It'll wound T 3 on a 3+, (2 2/3 hits). An Armor save of 5+ would reduce that to (1 7/9) unsaved wounds. Not spectacular, and not 2-3 models.
As an overwatch, 1 shot will hit on average, then wound on a 3+ (2/3 chance), and a 5+ save will block that 1/3 of the time, so it's down to a 4/9 chance of causing a single unsaved wound.

The Storm Bolter has 2 shots, normally hitting on a 3+ (1 1/3 hits). It's S 4 so it'll wound T 3 on a 3+ (2/3 chance to Wound) bringing it down to 2/3 chance of causing a single wound, that ignores 5+ armor saves.
As an overwatch, you'll statistically score (1/3) hits. Wounding on a 3+ reduces that to (2/9) wounds that ignore a 5+ Armor save.
At first glance the Storm Bolter looks worse, but the Psilencer gives up his Nemesis Force Sword for the gun, so he is base Initiative with no AP in close combat either, while the Storm Bolter Knight still has his AP3 attacks.

The Incinerator has a template about 8" long, and an enemy unit can render it difficult to use effectively by simply spreading out. It's hard to get more than 3 or 4 models under it (at least with my opponents). So 4 hits at Strength 6, wounding on a 2+, would result in (3 1/3 wounds being caused). However this is if they enemy lines up in your face. Range is where the Grey Knights need help. The best way I know of to make the Incinerators better is to put them behind a Promethium Relay Pipe to give them Torrent.

The Psycannon is almost certainly going to become a Salvo weapon, so I don't even want to speculate on how else it will change, but it is currently the best ranged option available to the Grey Knight infantry, having better range than the Incinerator, and more killing power vs heavy vehicles and high toughness models.

Interceptors only get double Flamers in a 10 man squad (300 points if the Incinerators are their only upgrades). And Psy-flame is only available to vehicles, so the man-portable Incinerator is set at S 6. Point decreases could alleviate this, but we don't know what changes are being made yet.

Grey Knights don't need to steal other factions' special units, but they need more of their own to give them a fighting chance against all the ridiculous units the other factions have gotten since 5th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:

 ace101 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
They don't need access to three vanilla - exclusive units. Stealing identity from another codex isn't the answer to updating their own one.

IIRC GK are the only marine army sans Vindicators, Whirlwinds and Predators. They certainly would add some utility IMHO, and (just asking) is there any reliable AT in the codex outside of OB and Doomfist DKs? I Would you be opposed to Tri-Las Preds or Vindis?

Hammers, Psycannons, S5 Stormbolters, and just plain old Hammerhand.

Granted, this doesn't work so well against anything with Rear Armor above 10...but that's less common.

Psyflemans are also unfortunately common.

They're common because we don't have other viable long-range weapons for the cost efficiency of the Psyflemen.

But what we really need is Long Range anti-hoard, and something that can ignore cover (I think we may be the only ones that can't ignore cover on at least something).

Incinerators are S6 stock? Here I thought they were 4, like flamers. So forget psyflame, they're already better. And I didn't forget to take into account a to hit roll or over watch 6s. Since you can't kill 1 7/9 of models in 40k, I rounded to 2 and allowed for deviation. So, more accurately, it kills 1-3 models. Over watch was accounted four. Assuming all storm bolters on a 5 man squad, 6-7 hits, 3-4 wounds shooting. Over watch nets 1-2 hits, one wound. Close combat nets a further 3-4 wounds. Combine for 7-9 wounds which about halves the theoretical 20 man blob, and that's a single group of purifiers not using cleansing flame.

As for spreading against flamers, here I thought we were discussing horde armies. In my experience, this equates to 40-70 models on the ground. Spreading even 20 models adequately to still be able to charge and not fumble the rest of your army's movement is already challenging. Assuming you pull that off, and it only causes three wounds, you then account for the wall of death and further guns in the unit. Again, don't look at single weapons. Five purifiers have cleansing flame, and storm bolters, and halberds, and possibly special or heavy weapons. All together, this WILL do at least 50% casualties to a GEQ tarpit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind, I'm not saying GK are fine for long range anti horde. This, they lack. What I'm saying is with the rumored loss of inquisition and assassins from the book, the identity of it will shift to mid range and cc. That's where they shine already, and if this is further strengthened then buffing their long range firepower as well is a mistake.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Incinerators are S6 stock? Here I thought they were 4, like flamers. So forget psyflame, they're already better. And I didn't forget to take into account a to hit roll or over watch 6s. Since you can't kill 1 7/9 of models in 40k, I rounded to 2 and allowed for deviation. So, more accurately, it kills 1-3 models. Over watch was accounted four. Assuming all storm bolters on a 5 man squad, 6-7 hits, 3-4 wounds shooting. Over watch nets 1-2 hits, one wound. Close combat nets a further 3-4 wounds. Combine for 7-9 wounds which about halves the theoretical 20 man blob, and that's a single group of purifiers not using cleansing flame.

As for spreading against flamers, here I thought we were discussing horde armies. In my experience, this equates to 40-70 models on the ground. Spreading even 20 models adequately to still be able to charge and not fumble the rest of your army's movement is already challenging. Assuming you pull that off, and it only causes three wounds, you then account for the wall of death and further guns in the unit. Again, don't look at single weapons. Five purifiers have cleansing flame, and storm bolters, and halberds, and possibly special or heavy weapons. All together, this WILL do at least 50% casualties to a GEQ tarpit.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind, I'm not saying GK are fine for long range anti horde. This, they lack. What I'm saying is with the rumored loss of inquisition and assassins from the book, the identity of it will shift to mid range and cc. That's where they shine already, and if this is further strengthened then buffing their long range firepower as well is a mistake.

3-4 wounds in the Shooting Phase, that they can do.
Cleansing Flame is 2D6 hits at S 5, AP 4, so it will average to 7 hits, and wounding on a 2+ will 5 5/6 (5-6) wounds. Rounding up in both instances is 10 unsaved wounds caused before the enemy shoots at them. Then they get an Overwatch, that may cause a wound if they're all still alive, but more likely it won't.
In close combat I used the number 20 as an extreme low end representation. I've seen 50 man I-Guard squads, who would actually have a 3-4+ cover save against the shooting attacks, making them even less effective. a 5-man Purifier squad only has 10 attacks, while the surviving 40 members of the I-guard squad each have one. So the Purifiers get 10 attacks, resulting in 6 hits, and finally 4 unsaved wounds. the remaining 36 attacks will cause 12 hits, 4 wounds, resulting in 1-2 deaths. So the Purifiers' only chance of winning is if the Guardsmen fail a moral test and they can perform a Sweeping Advance.
Total casualties: I-guard: 14-15/50, Purifiers 1-2/5 (Assuming no Purifiers were lost to shooting attacks).

As for the Flamers, Wall of Death is gone. Template weapons cannot fire overwatch anymore because the rule isn't in 7th edition. I'd love to be proved wrong, but I've read through the book and didn't find it anywhere.

And all of the ranged weapons they can take in exchange for their Storm Bolter also take their Sword away, so no AP in close combat for those models. They are not guaranteed to deal 50% casualties to a Tarpit.

And remember, this is the unit that I said was our BEST anti hoard unit.

Today, I battled SW with my GK using the current codex (Crowe, Coteaz, Henchmen, Psybacks) for the last time.
SW got badly beaten. Cheers.

Well if you're now comparing a 5 man purifier unit to a 50 man guard blob, then no they're not. Our theoretical was a 20 man unit, which they will do 50% casualties to. A 50 man blob isn't even close to a points equivalent comparison of 5 purifiers.

As for wall of death, I can't currently check as my rulebook isn't on me but I'm near positive it still exists. I'll get back to you once able.