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So far, the only ranks I know of for Space Marines are your basic Marines, Sergeants, and Captains. Is there nothing in between or above? No Coporals, Warrant/Petty Officers or Lieutenants, etc?
The Kasrkin were just men. It made their actions all the more astonishing. Six white blurs, they fell upon the cultists, lasguns barking at close range. They wasted no shots. One shot, one kill. - Eisenhorn: Malleus
Sturmtruppen wrote: So far, the only ranks I know of for Space Marines are your basic Marines, Sergeants, and Captains. Is there nothing in between or above? No Coporals, Warrant/Petty Officers or Lieutenants, etc?
They used to have such ranks. A Captain was seconded by a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant Commander was the 2nd in Command of the Chapter and the 'Captain' of the First Company. At squad level there were squad leaders, a corporal type position for when a tactical squad was split into combat squads.
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Gogsnik wrote: They used to have such ranks. A Captain was seconded by a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant Commander was the 2nd in Command of the Chapter and the 'Captain' of the First Company. At squad level there were squad leaders, a corporal type position for when a tactical squad was split into combat squads.
Yup, then the ranking systems got dumbed way down following the creation of the Codex Astartes.
Gogsnik wrote: They used to have such ranks. A Captain was seconded by a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant Commander was the 2nd in Command of the Chapter and the 'Captain' of the First Company. At squad level there were squad leaders, a corporal type position for when a tactical squad was split into combat squads.
Yup, then the ranking systems got dumbed way down following the creation of the Codex Astartes.
Neither of those were Guilliman's fault, both were down to gameplay:
Squad Leaders were actually from Codex:Ultramarines, they vanished along with combat squads in 3rd edition, though the marking - the iron halo - inexplicably appeared on some of the shoulderpad examples in the 4th edition codex, and on the new tactical sprue.
Lieutenant and Lieutenant-Commander were discarded when 2nd edition came out because GW decided to tie statlines to rank and there weren't enough to go round.
Gogsnik wrote: They used to have such ranks. A Captain was seconded by a Lieutenant. The Lieutenant Commander was the 2nd in Command of the Chapter and the 'Captain' of the First Company. At squad level there were squad leaders, a corporal type position for when a tactical squad was split into combat squads.
Yup, then the ranking systems got dumbed way down following the creation of the Codex Astartes.
Neither of those were Guilliman's fault, both were down to gameplay:
Squad Leaders were actually from Codex:Ultramarines, they vanished along with combat squads in 3rd edition, though the marking - the iron halo - inexplicably appeared on some of the shoulderpad examples in the 4th edition codex, and on the new tactical sprue.
Lieutenant and Lieutenant-Commander were discarded when 2nd edition came out because GW decided to tie statlines to rank and there weren't enough to go round.
Yeah, I like the sound of more complex ranking systems among the astartes. They seem way to simple.
eh the Marines are pretty small though, I mean a company is only what 100 men?that's pretty small on the face of it. IMHO the only thing I could see a need for an additional rank for would be a corperal to run the second squad when they combat squad
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: eh the Marines are pretty small though, I mean a company is only what 100 men?that's pretty small on the face of it. IMHO the only thing I could see a need for an additional rank for would be a corperal to run the second squad when they combat squad
Agreed, and to add, the sergeant of a captains command squad shouldn't be a sergeant, he should be lieutenant.
The strange thing is, in Epic Space Marines do use platoon-sized formations (detachments) of 20-30 men, yet Epic never presented a rank to command such a formation. Though its interesting to note that the 3rd edition vanilla codex gave a full strength battle company 5 Veteran Sergeants - which is also the maximum number of Epic detachments a battle company can field.
It's not the number of marines, it's the number of subordinate units. In the real world an officer of any level will typically only be responsible for directly coordinating the action of 2-5 subordinate units, be they squads, battalions or divisions. A Space Marine Captain successfully managing to coordinate a full ten squads plus dreadnoughts plus any attached assets in an everchanging combat situation without any intermediaries would be just as superhuman as being able to see in the dark, eat rocks and spit acid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/14 03:24:31
Gashrog wrote: It's not the number of marines, it's the number of subordinate units. In the real world an officer of any level will typically only be responsible for directly coordinating the action of 2-5 subordinate units, be they squads, battalions or divisions. A Space Marine Captain successfully managing to coordinate a full ten squads plus dreadnoughts plus any attached assets in an everchanging combat situation without any intermediaries would be just as superhuman as being able to see in the dark, eat rocks and spit acid.
Well IIRC the codex actually mentions that the changes made to a marine's mind are just as, if not more, impressive than the physical changes. Add that incredible mental capacity to a marine who has shown a natural talent for leadership and you have a captain fully capable of micro-managing his entire company while in the thick of battle.
Gashrog wrote: It's not the number of marines, it's the number of subordinate units. In the real world an officer of any level will typically only be responsible for directly coordinating the action of 2-5 subordinate units, be they squads, battalions or divisions. A Space Marine Captain successfully managing to coordinate a full ten squads plus dreadnoughts plus any attached assets in an everchanging combat situation without any intermediaries would be just as superhuman as being able to see in the dark, eat rocks and spit acid.
Well IIRC the codex actually mentions that the changes made to a marine's mind are just as, if not more, impressive than the physical changes. Add that incredible mental capacity to a marine who has shown a natural talent for leadership and you have a captain fully capable of micro-managing his entire company while in the thick of battle.
Then we have the Company Champions, who's job it is, is to allow the Captain to focus on coordinating his troops, rather than just fighting. The Command squad Veteran Sergeant relays orders to the troops, and can take command if the Captain is otherwise preoccupied.
The IA on Company Champions details their role a bit, and the Fall of Damnos by Nick Kyme gives a great insight to the authority of the Command squad Veteran Sergeant.
Gashrog wrote: The strange thing is, in Epic Space Marines do use platoon-sized formations (detachments) of 20-30 men, yet Epic never presented a rank to command such a formation. Though its interesting to note that the 3rd edition vanilla codex gave a full strength battle company 5 Veteran Sergeants - which is also the maximum number of Epic detachments a battle company can field.
Both I those are from the era of the Overfiend, so they may not be unrelated.
It would be silly for most of those ten+ units to be all by themselves; of course they work in "detachments."
However, those detachments don't need special separate officers. Marines operate in units of five in combat squads, 2-6 in bike/speeder assault squads, and only two(!) or one in armor and aircraft. Pairs of those units are commanded by one of their members. If their are groups of squads or larger than 15-16 marines, one of the sergeants will be be senior to the other sergeant or sergeants; he'll be a veteran sergeant. Wow.
Also, there are ten captains in a chapter with only four battle companies. Some of those other captains will be around to help out with the battle companies.
Also, when an army like the Imperial Guard deploys, there are officers and non comms to actually command the troops because the guardsmen they command are human soldiers trained to follow orders and respect a rigid and well defined command structure, as that is the only thing that will allow them to survive and triumph in a galaxy of intergalactic alien monsters and metallic skeletons and warloving, walking, talking/screaming fungus and daemons from another dimention, in addition to all the other "normal" aliens.
A Space Marine, doesn't need a rigid command structure to prevent them from fleeing in the face of overwhelming odds, or to co-ordinate a massed bayonette charge, or to advance in a tactical manner. They're all adept at their roles on the battlefield and they are often deployed in very small numbers with no more than a veteran Sgt to lead them on an important mission of tactical significance. They don't have tons of ranks, because they don't need them. By the time a Space Marine joins a tactical squad, they've been a scout, a devestator and in an assault unit.
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- General Robert Thurgood of the Emperor's Own Lasguns before the landings at Traitor's Folly at the onset of the Chrislea's Road Campaign
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- ///name stricken///, former 'Emperor's Champion'
Gashrog wrote: It's not the number of marines, it's the number of subordinate units. In the real world an officer of any level will typically only be responsible for directly coordinating the action of 2-5 subordinate units, be they squads, battalions or divisions. A Space Marine Captain successfully managing to coordinate a full ten squads plus dreadnoughts plus any attached assets in an everchanging combat situation without any intermediaries would be just as superhuman as being able to see in the dark, eat rocks and spit acid.
Not to mention that the Space Marines often deploy smaller numbers than a full company, meaning that the Captain is not necessarily even present. I definitely think there should be a Lieutenant rank.
I have actually though about this quite a bit, and here are the ranks of my own Crimson Templars (with illustrations) copied from my painting thread. Scouts are missing.
Spoiler:
The results of my overthinking of the Space Marine command structure and my desire to create IA type stuff for Crimson Templars. Pictures that illustrate markings of different ranks and positions in the chapter:
Normal battle-brothers display their squad symbol on their right shoulderpads, and naturally the chapter icon on the left.
Corporals act as second in command for normal squads, and lead the other five man group if the squad is split into combat squads. Corporals are indicated by a white stripe on their red helmets.
Veteran battle-brothers wear white helmets and carry Crux Terminatus on their right shoulder.
Sergeants lead squads of battle-brothers or act as second in command for veteran squads. Sergeants are indicated by a red stripe on their white helmets.
Master sergeants are leaders of veteran squads. They have a black stripe on their white helmets.
Each company has two lieutenants that help the captain to run the company. Lieutenenats have a white stripe on their black helmets, on the captains the stripe is red. Grand master of the Crimson templars has two-colour red and white stripe on his helmet. Marines of a rank of a liutenenat or higher are allowed to wear personal heraldry on their right shoulder.
Armour of the chapter's specialists varies depending on their specialty. They wear a symbol indicating their department on their right shoulder. The colours on their left shoulder showing the chapter badge are inverted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/14 14:56:03
Gashrog wrote: It's not the number of marines, it's the number of subordinate units. In the real world an officer of any level will typically only be responsible for directly coordinating the action of 2-5 subordinate units, be they squads, battalions or divisions. A Space Marine Captain successfully managing to coordinate a full ten squads plus dreadnoughts plus any attached assets in an everchanging combat situation without any intermediaries would be just as superhuman as being able to see in the dark, eat rocks and spit acid.
Not to mention that the Space Marines often deploy smaller numbers than a full company, meaning that the Captain is not necessarily even present. I definitely think there should be a Lieutenant rank.
I have actually though about this quite a bit, and here are the ranks of my own Crimson Templars (with illustrations) copied from my painting thread. Scouts are missing.
Spoiler:
The results of my overthinking of the Space Marine command structure and my desire to create IA type stuff for Crimson Templars. Pictures that illustrate markings of different ranks and positions in the chapter:
Normal battle-brothers display their squad symbol on their right shoulderpads, and naturally the chapter icon on the left.
Corporals act as second in command for normal squads, and lead the other five man group if the squad is split into combat squads. Corporals are indicated by a white stripe on their red helmets.
Veteran battle-brothers wear white helmets and carry Crux Terminatus on their right shoulder.
Sergeants lead squads of battle-brothers or act as second in command for veteran squads. Sergeants are indicated by a red stripe on their white helmets.
Master sergeants are leaders of veteran squads. They have a black stripe on their white helmets.
Each company has two lieutenants that help the captain to run the company. Lieutenenats have a white stripe on their black helmets, on the captains the stripe is red. Grand master of the Crimson templars has two-colour red and white stripe on his helmet. Marines of a rank of a liutenenat or higher are allowed to wear personal heraldry on their right shoulder.
Armour of the chapter's specialists varies depending on their specialty. They wear a symbol indicating their department on their right shoulder. The colours on their left shoulder showing the chapter badge are inverted.
I like this ranking system a lot and I wish it was official for GW.
