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If I attach an IC with the scout special rule to a unit, and put that unit in a dedicated transport, does the transport get the scout maneuver?

For example, Raven Guard chapter tactics.
Chapter Master w/ artificer armor gets the scout rule.
Assault Terminators are bulky so they dont get the scout rule.
Terminators can take a land raider as dedicated transport.
Scout confers to a dedicated transport.
Scout reads that if one model in the unit has this, then the unit can move.
Since the HQ is considered part of the unit, the transport is considered dedicated to the unit, does the Land Raider get the scout redeployment?

Does scout say th entire unit HAS the rule? Otherwise the dedicated transport will not gain scout

Normally Scout is given to the dedicated transport the unit is deployed with. There's nothing in the Scout rules that prevent Bulky and its variants benefitting from Scout. RG CT brings up a situation that has been discussed several times here - can the Scout given by an IC be given as well to the DT his unit is in, if it's Bulky+?

Some people say the IC 'loses' Scout as soon as it enters a Bulky+ RG unit, while others (me as well) say that the Bulky+ unit was already checked to have Scout or not when you were building your list and chose RG CT; the moment you join the IC on it, the unit gets the Scout from that IC.

It's a ongoing discussion to this day. I'd suggest you to talk to the folks you play with about this.

The rules are actually fairly straightforward, its just there are other things that make it hard for people to believe.

If you break it down its like this:

Raven guard chapter tactics grant scout and stealth to non-bulky models. Chapter master with arti armor gets it, termies dont.

Scout special rule says if a model in the unit has it, it is conferred to the unit. Since CM has it, it is conferred to the termies he has joined.

Units with scout confer it to their DT. The termy unit confers it to the LR.

The Raven guard chapter tactics dont mention anywhere that scout Cannot be granted to bulky models, just that they dont get it by themselves. There is no restriction from passing the rule on to them some other way.

Wouldn't the bulky rule overrule the 'scout' rule the same way as unwieldy overrule any initiative rule? No matter what bonuses you get your initiative would be 1 due to unwieldy, and the same could be said about bulky.
So no bulky unit can follow the RG scout rule.

 Inkubas wrote:
Wouldn't the bulky rule overrule the 'scout' rule the same way as unwieldy overrule any initiative rule? No matter what bonuses you get your initiative would be 1 due to unwieldy, and the same could be said about bulky.
So no bulky unit can follow the RG scout rule.

No because its not Bulky that prevent scounts, just RG CT. So if scout is coming from a different source then bulky has no effect whats so ever.

Once the CM joins the Terms though, it is now a unit that includes Bulky models and would not benefit.

But Bulky doesnt confer to the whole unit, so the Chapter Master still keeps his scout. And if one model in the unit has scout, then the WHOLE unit has scout.

If Bulky conferred to the chapter master when he joined the unit, then the unit would not have scout.

When an IC joins a unit, how many units are there?




Also not that the Chapter Tactics does not say the unit does not get the special rules, but the unit can not benefit from the special rulse.

 Icculus wrote:
But Bulky doesnt confer to the whole unit, so the Chapter Master still keeps his scout. And if one model in the unit has scout, then the WHOLE unit has scout.

If Bulky conferred to the chapter master when he joined the unit, then the unit would not have scout.

Exact rule is:
(...)Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule.

I will repeat: unit that include models

So Chapter Master joining Termies is a unit that contains Bulky models so Chapter Master loses Scout and Stealth.

danyboy wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
But Bulky doesnt confer to the whole unit, so the Chapter Master still keeps his scout. And if one model in the unit has scout, then the WHOLE unit has scout.

If Bulky conferred to the chapter master when he joined the unit, then the unit would not have scout.

Exact rule is:
(...)Note that units that include models with the Bulky or Very Bulky special rules do not benefit from either rule.

I will repeat: unit that include models

So Chapter Master joining Termies is a unit that contains Bulky models so Chapter Master loses Scout and Stealth.

No, he does not lose them. In fact the whole unit still has them. They just cannot benefit from them.

 Happyjew wrote:

No, he does not lose them. In fact the whole unit still has them. They just cannot benefit from them.

Hmm... your'e right. My english is poor, so could you explain what's the point / what's the differenece / of having a rule without benefits in this case?

danyboy wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

No, he does not lose them. In fact the whole unit still has them. They just cannot benefit from them.

Hmm... your'e right. My english is poor, so could you explain what's the point / what's the differenece / of having a rule without benefits in this case?

The difference it by having the rule but being unable to benefit from it there is no argument about timing and when the rule is given/removed. So the CM has the rule but RG CTs prevents him from gaining any benefit from him as soon as he joins a unit that contains bulky models.

danyboy wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

No, he does not lose them. In fact the whole unit still has them. They just cannot benefit from them.

Hmm... your'e right. My english is poor, so could you explain what's the point / what's the differenece / of having a rule without benefits in this case?

The key difference being, if a unit just 'doesn't have a rule' then if another source gave them the rule there would be nothing to stop them from using it. The wording of this rule basically says... you can never use this rule. I don't care if you have 5 different ways of putting a rule on this unit, you are prevented from ever making use of it.

Hmm but that brings up a new question.

Bulky units get scout but can not benefit but units can transfer some of their spe. rules to their Dec. transport.

so units and transports are two dif. units bought under the same slots.( this has been ruled in reff. to rules like stealth and shroud) so that would mean a Landraider bought as transport would have Scout and could us it. being as it has no bulky models as part of it's unit and can benefit from it

but now here's where it gets blurred can the Landraider scout with termies in it? being as it's not the unit that CAN"T benefit from it doing the scout or outflank move but the unit that can.

this can question can go either way. and here's why any unit without scout does not benefit from the rule at all. even when in a transport that can and does scout. a transport does not loose the use of a rules just cause the unit inside can't use it.

Clearly answered within the rules for Scout itself, IMHO.

If you can not benefit from a rule, how can you transfer it? That is one of the benefits of having the rule.

probably because transferral has nothing to do with benefits as far as 40k rules go.

 Shandara wrote:
If you can not benefit from a rule, how can you transfer it? That is one of the benefits of having the rule.

In the original post the rule is not transferring from the terminators, but from the characters. Plus the rules for Scout say that the unit doesn't lose it if the unit embarked does not have the Scout rule.

 Shandara wrote:
If you can not benefit from a rule, how can you transfer it? That is one of the benefits of having the rule.

that easy cause the unit that is transferring it is not benefiting from the rule, but the unit receiving it is.

besides if you go off what you are saying that a unit of termies can't use a teleport homer used by scouts that use the scout rule.

Well, if we assume that the LR gets the Scout rule, but the unit inside cannot benifit from it, then wouldnt the LR using the rule benefit the termis?

So we are back to, yeah it gets the rule but cant use it.

That was the potin that was made - defining benefit that loosely means you cannot DS termies onto a teleport homer that Scouts, using Scout, placed there - as they benefitted from the Scouts using the Scout rule.

In that case they are benifiting from the teleport homer, not the scout rule.

In the LR example they are directly benefiting, ie. making a scout move.

In the teleport homer they are DSing, not scouting

1) Which is only where it is because of the scout redeploy. Without the scout redeploy the homer would have been in a less advantageous position. They have BENEFITED from the SCOUT RULE that the Scouts possess. Less direct than some, but as valid a connection as the scout transport.

2) No, they are NOT makiing a scout move. FIrstly, no such thing exists. It is a scout redeploy. Secondly they never redeploy; they are deployed in the exact same position as previously, embarked.

This is circling dangerously close to another debate about the scout redeployment and units in a transport.

1) I think that is reaching back a bit far.

2) IMHO they were in one position in space, ie grid X,Y,Z (in a transport), after the scout move they are now in grid X1, Y1, Z1, the fact that the transport did the moving is moot. You can say they havent redeployed since they are embarked, but their position has changed, ie redeployed.

"ohh but they arent on the table, they arent deployed"

"yeah, we got that, the models dont fit in the vehicles, they are in there and we know it. If the LR explodes they get hurt, if they werent in there they would just casually walk out of the warp where they just deployed from into the wreck"

(sorry, i have had this debate before)

1) Cool. Now find your "too far" written anywhere.

DE couldnt use unit ran off table after failing a morale test due to us shooting, so we get a PtP token, so it seems they want things to be quite direct.

2) Cool, now prove it. They are, by rules, EMBARKED on the vehicle. That is their position. The vehicle redeploys, the unit is exactly where they were previously - embarked.

You may have had the debate, but youve ignored the actual rules.

1) Preface of comment was "I think" sorry, should have used IMHO, because there are not rules for it.

If you want a absolute RAW definition of this then ok, in this detachment you cannot scout at all if you have any units with bulky or very bulky, because in that case, the army may recieve some benefit. So you want to scout? No termis or cents.

2) So if they are embarked, they are in the vehicle? Therfore they are in the same place in space as the vehicle. If the vehicle moves the unit inside also moves, otherwise it would just drive off without them.

They redeploy, or they dont and the vehicle does, but since they are giving it the rule then the vehicle cant.

So EMBARKED at X,Y,Z redeploy now EMBARKED at X1,Y1,Z1, explain how they have not redeployed, they are in a different place


Edit: Unless you are saying they are in a schrodinger-esk superposition. They are in the tank but not really in the tank until they get out or you open the box....I mean blow it up.

2) Nope, their RAW deployment is "embarked"

Yes, we all know the position changes. Actual rules dont care about that though

Ok then, so RAW, if any bulky of very bulky models are in this detachment, no models who recieve scout from the CT may make a scout redployment because it is to the benefit of the models who are bulky/very bulky.

annnnnnnd roger

edit: spelling


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry forgot to address, your point.

So, if they are deployed as "embarked" and it doesnt matter where on the board they move, than any unit, regardless of wether they have scout or not, are in a superposition of being both in and not in every transport on the board (excpet dedicated transports, since they cant start the gmae in them unless they bought them).

taurising wrote:
So, if they are deployed as "embarked" and it doesnt matter where on the board they move, than any unit, regardless of wether they have scout or not, are in a superposition of being both in and not in every transport on the board (excpet dedicated transports, since they cant start the gmae in them unless they bought them).

Indeed, all 5 transports have 5 "embarked" units, and there is no way of knowing which unit is in which transport... apart from the RaW that tells you to make note of this during deployment