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2014/08/15 21:10:22
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Of course he will.. He's the man that called Pokemon a fad.
I'm in the process of switching from GW products to GW inspired miniatures I designed and someone else printed and cast for me for prices comparable to GW product. That's before I go into economics of scale. Once that kicks in, I'll be paying less per miniature than what GW and FW asks for their models. Significantly less in fact.
If I can do it, everyone can.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/15 21:23:16
2014/08/15 21:17:25
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Depends on the type of printers they're using. Shapeways still hasn't been able to deliver that type of quality like the 3d printed models by GW and others.
I mean, look at these these. I doubt you could really tell apart which one is the print, which one is the plastic one and which one is metal.
The current products may look grainy, but it is proof-positive that major companies are getting on at the ground level and can see where this is headed in the future.
GW seems to lack that kind of clarity of sight/though/action.
2014/08/15 21:50:11
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Malika2 wrote: Depends on the type of printers they're using. Shapeways still hasn't been able to deliver that type of quality like the 3d printed models by GW and others.
I mean, look at these these. I doubt you could really tell apart which one is the print, which one is the plastic one and which one is metal.
I'll take a stab at it. Starting from the left. Plastic, plastic, metal, printed.
I'm sure I'm wrong, but it was fun trying to figure it out, so there you go.
All the worlds a joke and the people merely punchlines
2014/08/15 23:40:44
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
It's a smart move by Hasbro - if the hardcore fans want to print their own versions of the figures, why not let them. Just grab a percentage and be done with it, while generating some cheap publicity, too.
3d printing will always be more expensive than mass producing, though - even if GW is trying to make that happen by rising the prices every second month It's not a technology that will make things super cheap, unless were talking about individual customised pieces.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/15 23:43:08
2014/08/16 00:37:20
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
The reason why 3d printing is still expensive is because it isn't fast enough for mass production. Now if the machines could print at a rate of mass production, you would no longer need to cast the figures. No more casting, and direct printing, would mean that your designs could become even crazier since you don't have to worry about stuff like undercuts and castability. It would be totally mental!
I have yet to see a Shapeways print that was acceptable for a 28mm scale master. I used their service and their top quality print material and it was not up to the task. A print from a suitable machine can be found ells where but you will pay $150-$250 for each miniature.
Perhaps in five to ten years the quality and price will align to make it a real option, but for now, its expensive to have master quality prints made.
Any resemblance of this post to written English is purely coincidental.
2014/08/16 01:25:01
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Malika2 wrote: The reason why 3d printing is still expensive is because it isn't fast enough for mass production. Now if the machines could print at a rate of mass production, you would no longer need to cast the figures. No more casting, and direct printing, would mean that your designs could become even crazier since you don't have to worry about stuff like undercuts and castability. It would be totally mental!
Its the material/ supply issue that makes it expensive. I have it on very good authority that 3D printing is well and truly here. Prices are up there, but the things I've seen have put the originals to shame.
Whoever controls the supply controls the 3D spice.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
2014/08/16 11:02:07
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
The print shown in the link is shapeways "coloured sandstone", they are made from powdered gypsum!
It looks grainy because it's literally made from grains. Its like 3d printing in concrete, the layers and detailing can't be fine because the material is brittle like concrete, with the colour provided by including dye into the glue, which is pretty damned clever if you ask me.
@ grot: Add that each material has specific requirements, the engineering cost for the machines used, the cost of producing high precision motors used to control the position of the print head or laser. Much of it has got cheaper thanks to production of the phones we all have in our pockets.
2014/08/16 11:14:15
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
This has been pretty much goal for modeling once the quality gets better. Now I just need to comission someone to make CAD models for special characters GW refuses to remake.
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
2014/08/16 15:05:26
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Its the material/ supply issue that makes it expensive. I have it on very good authority that 3D printing is well and truly here. Prices are up there, but the things I've seen have put the originals to shame.
Whoever controls the supply controls the 3D spice.
3D printing has been here for a while, for several decades to be exact. It's called 'rapid prototyping'. One interesting question is that as rapid prototyping patents are pretty old, and they are going to become public domain at some point in near future. Potentially, this might mean cheaper high-resolution machines, when multiple manufacturers can jump the ship.
What '3d printing' has been able to do, is public awareness and creation of different consumer services like Shapeways. So the ecosystem is there, when the machine prices start to drop.. Then again, remember, this kind of 'revolution' has already happened with print shops etc. - and it's still cheaper to buy a generic t-shirt or a poster from a commercial source, rather than get your own printed.
On printing speed - 3d printing machines rely on similar servo motors etc. than regular printers, and those have been in use for decades. Just like you don't have a inkjet printer that churns out 1 page per second, you won't have a 3d printer that prints a model per minute. That's why serial production will still be done using casting machines.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/16 15:14:21
2014/08/16 15:49:00
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Nothing terribly new about this at all except that it's shapeways getting in on it and Hasbro signing on. As Prowla said, rapid prototyping has been around for a while, but really these are almost exactly what Figure Prints have been doing for the last 7 years. I had one made about 6 years back, they're pretty awesome and the print detail for the color is great, but the figures themselves are very VERY grainy, surfaces feels like sandpaper and they're quite brittle. Good for a display piece on my desk, horrible for a gaming piece
I remember when Blizz started offering those. I bet you could do a decent BFG fleet like that. Not sure how brittle they would be, but cost wise?
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
2014/08/16 16:12:11
Subject: Re:Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
NoseGoblin wrote:I have yet to see a Shapeways print that was acceptable for a 28mm scale master. I used their service and their top quality print material and it was not up to the task. A print from a suitable machine can be found ells where but you will pay $150-$250 for each miniature.
Perhaps in five to ten years the quality and price will align to make it a real option, but for now, its expensive to have master quality prints made.
Have you seen their new wax? I mean, look at these (models by Fleafa over at Resin Addict):
Printed wax
Cast:
Regarding $150-$200 per miniature, maybe at some companies. The wax stuff posted above is probably around a quarter of that price. (I remember my BFG stand-in escort models, which are 40mm long were about $25 to print in wax). Then there are other companies like Micro RP who will do a 28mm scaled figure for about $80.
The 200$ mark if is generally for a full miniature, not just a torso. The step on the curved surfaces also tells me it's not the best you can get as far as detail goes and that obviously costs extra.
2014/08/16 16:40:05
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Here is the future of 3D printing:
Within 5-10 years we will see printers for personal use that print at less than 10 micron.
Within 10-15 years we will see these printers being able to print in colours.
Within 15-20 years we will see 3D printers that can print 20 miniatures an hour, in full colour with better than golden daemon paint jobs.
Perhaps then I will finally get some sisters of battle models.
The stuff we have today with sandstone is far better than most people can paint.
Every time this discussion pops up I always post this video, it's using technology that was available 5 years ago and you can have custom heads printed for your miniatures if you want.
Might be grainy but it's still better than most gamers can paint.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/16 16:40:17
His Master's Voice wrote: The 200$ mark if is generally for a full miniature, not just a torso. The step on the curved surfaces also tells me it's not the best you can get as far as detail goes and that obviously costs extra.
I don't know how much it cost Fleafa to print these, but looking at my own experiences so far I would say the torsos would probably have cost around $20 each. Also, like I mentioned in my previous post Micro RP already do full 28mm scaled miniatures for $80, that's basically less than half the price you're suggesting.
Rikerwota wrote: I'm quite surprised that many of the replies seem to be taking a very short-term, entrenched view.
'This is the way it is, it will never change, or not change enough for us to worry.'
Remember when that crazy idea of personal computers would never catch on? Digital music? Direct to garment printing?
The technology will advance in leaps and bounds, so you either have to be ahead of the curve or the technology wave will pass you by.
I think most of us are quite aware of how this technology will only improve in the future, and there have been many discussions on Dakka regarding that topic. This thread, however, is about a particular new product, a new product that really has little to do with wargaming. And so we are discussing how this news fits in with current wargaming, and if it has a real effect at all on wargaming or at least modeling.
The answer is really...No. No it doesn't. It's a new license, which is good if you're a bronie (there's at least a few on Dakka, judging by avatars), but it's mostly just a new use of existing tech at pretty near the same prices and really doesn't advance the options of 3d printing wargaming quality miniatures one bit.
Rikerwota wrote: I'm quite surprised that many of the replies seem to be taking a very short-term, entrenched view.
Hero Forge recently had a KS for customized miniatures and pulled in 360K, at $30 for a miniature. Obviously, we're not talking rank-and-file miniatures gaming armies here, but a *custom* miniature for, say, an RPG player. (The pledge that had the most backers was for a single miniature.) So, much as we have plastics for mass armies and mosters, and metal and resin for personalities and heroes, the next step is a custom miniature of "my character". (Also check out Update 15 for a Shapeways announcement!)
Most technology goes through three phases: enthusiast, business, and consumer. We're clearly in the enthusiast phase, with businesses pushing 3D printing for custom parts for non-entertainment use (eg. 3D printing for medical stents). 3D printing takes out one step in the miniatures molding process, and also has no mold lines or undercuts. With high-end miniatures selling for $30 or more, I certainly see a market for custom miniatures and other 3D art. I'll also be happy when I see these mini's in *color*. Not all of us gamers want to paint our man-dollies!
I printed this at home on a Form1+ printer. The problem is the cleanup- this model worked well because it's a bust, and all the support material was on the underside.
Compare this to only two and a half years ago, when this is the best I could achieve on a MakeBot Thing-O-Matic:
As noted above by ced, it's easy to envision models being printed complete with crazy undercuts, like the mouth on the predator bust above. I don't ever see this being cheaper than molding for rank and file miniatures, but with the prices places like Kingdom Death are charging for single resin figures, 3d printing them actually could look like an attractive option sooner rather than later! Especially if the pace of technology improvement continues like it has, and I think it will for some time to come.
The B9 Creator can achieve very similar results to the above, if not better. So, while 3d printing isn't quite there yet, it is getting darn close
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/16 22:36:00
2014/08/16 23:43:39
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
I have the shapeways, Zardoz head. It is made from the sandstone material. The details are pretty tight. It is a little bit rough, but by feel, not by appearance.
2014/08/17 02:26:35
Subject: Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
People keep talking about the roughness or grainey feel of 3d prints and I will agree it depends on material and printer quality case in point clear horizon miniatures ran a kickstarter last year and they used high end 3d printing to create masters for the larger vehicles in the range and they had to still had to smooth the surfaces of the prints .
right now and for the next few years this will be the use that gaming companies will make of them it is a relatively cheap way to make multiple masters or try out new designs but as improvements are made the low end printers will improve right now were at the dot matrix stage moving to the inkjet and laser and while I dont think everybodys will have a printer in the house I can see professional sculpters having them to design in 3d like creature caster all his masters are to be 3d printed.
2014/08/17 02:56:22
Subject: Re:Hasbro Teaming with Shapeways - Future in 3D Licensing?
Its the material/ supply issue that makes it expensive. I have it on very good authority that 3D printing is well and truly here. Prices are up there, but the things I've seen have put the originals to shame.
Whoever controls the supply controls the 3D spice.
3D printing has been here for a while, for several decades to be exact. It's called 'rapid prototyping'. One interesting question is that as rapid prototyping patents are pretty old, and they are going to become public domain at some point in near future. Potentially, this might mean cheaper high-resolution machines, when multiple manufacturers can jump the ship.
What '3d printing' has been able to do, is public awareness and creation of different consumer services like Shapeways. So the ecosystem is there, when the machine prices start to drop.. Then again, remember, this kind of 'revolution' has already happened with print shops etc. - and it's still cheaper to buy a generic t-shirt or a poster from a commercial source, rather than get your own printed.
On printing speed - 3d printing machines rely on similar servo motors etc. than regular printers, and those have been in use for decades. Just like you don't have a inkjet printer that churns out 1 page per second, you won't have a 3d printer that prints a model per minute. That's why serial production will still be done using casting machines.
100% agree, but I'm saying that it is going to be about the print medium at this point. 3D is here. the question for the layman now goes to Fine-rap quality, or Vic Quality as far as the medium of printing material goes.
When you see these printers at work, it is quite an education as far as "How far can we go..."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: I printed this at home on a Form1+ printer. The problem is the cleanup- this model worked well because it's a bust, and all the support material was on the underside.
Compare this to only two and a half years ago, when this is the best I could achieve on a MakeBot Thing-O-Matic:
As noted above by ced, it's easy to envision models being printed complete with crazy undercuts, like the mouth on the predator bust above. I don't ever see this being cheaper than molding for rank and file miniatures, but with the prices places like Kingdom Death are charging for single resin figures, 3d printing them actually could look like an attractive option sooner rather than later! Especially if the pace of technology improvement continues like it has, and I think it will for some time to come.
The B9 Creator can achieve very similar results to the above, if not better. So, while 3d printing isn't quite there yet, it is getting darn close
R Tides illustrates my point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/17 08:21:41
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
It's not a technology that will make things super cheap, unless were talking about individual customised pieces.
Renegades - 
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester 
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k 
