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I feel this is most appropriate as a Background topic as I have questions about reflecting marines in the fluff for RT.

How compatible are DW Marines with RT?

Just how different are DW Marines to BC CSM?

How big a difference are there between BC CSM and RT characters?

I only have RT (Though, I do have all of the books) and DH so far. We only really play RT in my local group.

The next story we play is one where I will get to be GM, and I am thinking of having a Techmarine making a minor appearance in the story, taking the role of a temporary ally, a bi-character to help the group against otherwise a little too bad odds.

If I want him to be impressive (Cut a swathe through minor foes with ease) but not too impressive (I have heard something about DW Marines gunning down Hive Tyrants with ease, something I find absolutely absurd), what should I stat him at? He is supposed to be a powerhouse but not a god of war. Would converting BC rules to a loyalist do? Or forcing down DW stats?

Headcanon is a thing, yes. In my local meta (Both the 40K group and the RT group, which actually are two different groups entirely- we are a fair few people) we have adopted the nine foot version as the Holy Truth (I am, of course, innocent) and agree that SM should be pretty boss, though as said, not gun-down-HTs easily (Or even solo HTs) boss.

Side note, I made another RPG thread about the SoB and Orks a while back. For those wondering the RP went well, but we eventually started over as we made many mistakes, and I got the role as RT this time, an offer I could not refuse.

This thread might be of interest to you. Link

Having never played a roleplay game ever, I'm not much help I'm afraid and I've only read a few of these books for the background but I honestly couldn't tell you just how different these systems are although some say the Marines in Deathwatch are very over-powered and some seem to think not but you'll see that explained more fully in that other thread.

the books themselves actually explain the differances in XP etc, and give some conversion tips. so deathwatch itself should provide most of what you need

Death Watch marines are a little bit stronger than Black Crusade marines, having more starting skills and talents, and with unnatural characteristics being a multipler in DW compared to a simple addition in Black Crusade (In DW, unnatural x2 multiples your ability bonus by two, whereas the Black Cruade marines just have a flat +4 SB and TB to their stats- thus a Death Watch marine with TB5 would have TB10, whereas a Black Crusade marine with TB5 would have TB9).


Haven't played a significant amount of Rogue Trader, but I do know that the power level is similar to Dark Heresy's. So with that metric, a Death Watch marine would be much more powerful than your average Rogue Trader individually.

However, the thing to keep in mind is that nominally, what makes Death Watch marines over-the-top is the power of their equipmment. If you had a Tech Marine who was armed with small-arms weapons like bolters, melta/plasma guns etc, he'd be very powerful, enough to handle a squad of enemies on his own, but not powerful enough to make the campaign EZ mode for the rest of your players.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

However, the thing to keep in mind is that nominally, what makes Death Watch marines over-the-top is the power of their equipmment. If you had a Tech Marine who was armed with small-arms weapons like bolters, melta/plasma guns etc, he'd be very powerful, enough to handle a squad of enemies on his own, but not powerful enough to make the campaign EZ mode for the rest of your players.

Thank you, that is exactly what I needed. Yes, I want him to be a supporting character. He is supposed to be powerful, and his assistance to be very noticeable (not only in combat but also, to our Explorator's joy, technical expertise), but he is not supposed to steal the show entirely.

And if worst comes to worst I'll just throw nasties on him until he slows down. I have checked through the RT books and there's a lot of nasties in here.

A single DW Marine in an RT campaign shouldn't be too over-powerful, as being alone he loses the benefit of his Squad Mode functions (as those only apply to other Marines).

Still, he will be monstrous in combat (as he should be), but there are plenty of nasties in space to more than balance against.

In my gaming group we've had a marine in an RT campaign once and it wasn't particularly overly powerful (we did have him as a scout though so didn't get all the power armour benefits).

When you consider the sort of weapons the Profit Factor and requisition system lets you get as a party in RT there is plenty available relatively easily that can keep marines in check.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Death Watch marines are a little bit stronger than Black Crusade marines, having more starting skills and talents, and with unnatural characteristics being a multipler in DW compared to a simple addition in Black Crusade (In DW, unnatural x2 multiples your ability bonus by two, whereas the Black Cruade marines just have a flat +4 SB and TB to their stats- thus a Death Watch marine with TB5 would have TB10, whereas a Black Crusade marine with TB5 would have TB9).


Haven't played a significant amount of Rogue Trader, but I do know that the power level is similar to Dark Heresy's. So with that metric, a Death Watch marine would be much more powerful than your average Rogue Trader individually.

However, the thing to keep in mind is that nominally, what makes Death Watch marines over-the-top is the power of their equipmment. If you had a Tech Marine who was armed with small-arms weapons like bolters, melta/plasma guns etc, he'd be very powerful, enough to handle a squad of enemies on his own, but not powerful enough to make the campaign EZ mode for the rest of your players.

Also note as well that Black Crusade mentions IIRC different starting points and thus better stats for a Veteran of the Long War, as opposed to some Red Corsair fresh from the Badab War.

Might seem off topic but how great is deathwatch?

And from what my friend says he played a SW assualt marine and got wrecked by a Tyranid Broodlord so they don't seem that overpowering, considering any "Dan Abnett" adjacent opinions would say the SW should've killed it.

 Lord Tarkin wrote:
Might seem off topic but how great is deathwatch?

And from what my friend says he played a SW assualt marine and got wrecked by a Tyranid Broodlord so they don't seem that overpowering, considering any "Dan Abnett" adjacent opinions would say the SW should've killed it.

Deathwatch is basically a chapter made up entirely of Sternguard Veterans.

I've got a pdf for marine progression.somwhere. Its quite good they're quite good, dont have more than one or two depending on group size unless everyone is a marine. and throw the harder stuff in their direction.

EDIT: found it online http://www.scribd.com/doc/119861121/Dark-Heresy-Space-Marine-Career-Path

 optometris wrote:
I've got a pdf for marine progression.somwhere. Its quite good they're quite good, dont have more than one or two depending on group size unless everyone is a marine. and throw the harder stuff in their direction.

EDIT: found it online http://www.scribd.com/doc/119861121/Dark-Heresy-Space-Marine-Career-Path

Space Marines with bows, robes (no PA) and axes?

Seems a little... forced?

I haven't read that PDF, but from the sound of things, it turned the SM into a class designed to work with DH, in that they start out as an Aspirant and then, at some point around Rank 8, actually become Space Marines and move on to being Real Space Marines as Ascended characters.

Otherwise, if they were starting out as Scouts at Rank 1, they should have bolters and carapace.

It's pretty rare to go from Aspirant to PA Marine over the course of a campaign, though...

Indeed, the time-line for that development doesn't match the standard timeline of most RPG campaigns... but that is all I can figure it being if the Marine starts with a bow and some robes.

This is why I consider Marines better as GM-controlled enemies or bi-characters, rather than PCs. SM have little in the way of short term progression. A Rogue Trader's bodyguard can go from a leather vest and an autogun to master-crafted carapace armour and a xenotech über-rifle over the course of a campaign, but a similar progression simply does not happen for a Marine tagging along. And progression is an important part of the RPGs.

They make excellent plot tools, though. The fact that they are really strong does not hurt at all, it just changes the way they are used.

Indeed. I would not allow a PC Space Marine in my DH games. He'd be an NPC character, at the minimum already a full Battle Brother, with the bolter, the PA, the combat knife, the chainsword, the belt full of grenades and all his attendant other wargear, and he'd be the sort of guy that is used in one single mission to punch a hole in the enemy's defenses so the Retinue can get inside and do their thing.

I can think of countless situations.

The party has been hounded by a Chaos Space Marine who has continously hampered their efforts Kai Leng-style. The party really needs to get their mission done but that CSM is a big obstacle. So when a loyalist Marine with the same mission appears, having the CSM tackling someone his own size can be helpful (and provides a dramatic fight to boot).

Or another situation. The party finally finds the location of a nasty cult they've been hunting. They detect a power signature and land next to it, but they find a landed Stormtalon, with a Techmarine performing field repairs on it. The Techmarine agrees to provide assistance, first as air support while moving to the cult base. When they reach it, the Techmarine scans the base and finds that it's a labyrinth network of tunnels with two large entrances. You agree to split up with the Techmarine taking one entrance and the party the other. Occasionally your paths cross; the first time your party is nearly overwhelmed by raving madmen until the Techmarine arrives, charging through them like a rampaging freight train, while the second time you find that the cultist elites have obtained lascannons and have the Astartes pinned down, meaning you will have to flank the cultists so that he can proceed. And when you reach the central chambers...

They just have so damn much potential! Aghaghagha can't wait until it's my turn to be GM.

Sure, those scenarios are basically what I would use one for (storywise). In this case, the SM fighting the CSM is the SM busting through the enemy's defenses to allow the Retinue to do their stuff.

The Techmarine task there can almost as easily be accomplished by Arbites or Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and a Valk. While that's true in a lot of cases where SM frequently show up (and it's a whole lot easier to get an IS regiment than it is a Space Marine), sometimes you want the grandsons of the God-Emperor to make an appearance.

But I think we are on the same page with the SM not being a PC, and only making an appearance when it's dramatically appropriate.

It does tbf take alot of shoehorning to make a sm a PC. you can always drop one in as a deathwatch NPC.

as a finale to a campaign i've had the team be accompanied by a space marine that didnt really talk, and arrived to help them in a battle where they were getting overwhelmed. He stayed around for the last few sessions and helped them to fight against the chaos lord who after they seemed to get close to slaying turned into a greater daemon of khorne. who they frantically fought for a little while before a massed Dark Angel drop force landed and slew the daemon. and the retinue was captured as it turned out the marine was a fallen angel.

not sure if we'll do a campaign that follows on from that, as I guess the DA would just kill them. But there was a high ranking inquisitor they were escorting. haven't decided - I might have them running new characters but starting a few levels up. sent to investigate the dissapearance of that inquisitor.

I think, roleplaying wise, it also really depends upon your group.

If you have, for instance, a player who is adept at sharing the spotlight, and isn't concerned with 'advancement' and 'gearing up', and a group who isn't bothered if people have different specialities and strengths, I can see one working great with either Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy. The marine player needs to understand that he's not going to be advancing at the same rate as everybody else, nor getting lots of goodies, but the other players need to know that everything isn't going to get solved by a bolter round to the face, too.

It's a situation with plenty of potential for abuse, but heck, players in Rogue Trader could just go crazy with the assets they control and subvert a lot of games anyhow. If you have a player contract that everybody is happy with, I could certainly see potential scenarios.

For instance, a White Scar who is honor bound to hunt someone down, making some sort of arrangement with a Rogue Trader who is going out of Imperial Space into the sector where the marine needs to go. The White Scar is gonna be superior in combat to everybody on board, but most of the battles might be fought largely as space combat (so, effectively, he's just a REALLY GOOD boarding defense/offense). He would help them, because he wants to get to his target, but he's not their servant, nor are his purposes necessarily their own. All of the negotiation doesn't favor (or hurt) him and covert operations could be much tricker with a huge post-human. It would take the right group, but I think things like this would be fine.