Switch Theme:

Science Question regarding water  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Bournemouth, UK

In the 40k universe the fluff refers to all of the oceans on Earth boiling away, leaving vast deserts. Now as I understand it this would be impossible? The only way that water could physically disappear is for the atmosphere to burn away and it go out into space, or for it to be picked up and transported off world.

Is this correct?

Just one of those random Thursday thoughts

Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.

Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor

I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design

www.wulfstandesign.co.uk

http://www.voodoovegas.com/
 
   
Made in ie
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Without water, we probably wouldn't have much of an atmosphere either. Isn't water vapour a significant component of the planet's atmosphere?
   
Made in gb
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





I think XKCD answers much of the question:

http://what-if.xkcd.com/103/

Vanishing Water

What would happen if all the bodies of water on Earth magically disappeared?

—Joanna Xu

As is often the case with these questions, everyone would die.

The first people to notice would be swimmers and boaters, for obvious reasons.


[Planet, dead ahead!]

To avoid a glass half empty scenario, we'll assume the water is replaced by air.

Most people swim in water which is relatively shallow, so most of them would survive the fall to the bottom, albeit with a few broken bones.[1] People out on the ocean, on the other hand, would be in trouble.

The ones in shallow water would hit bottom first, since they wouldn't have as far to fall. Within the first second, a large fraction of the boats in lakes, rivers, and harbors would crash into the bottom, and many of those on board would survive.

http://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/103/wreck.png" border="0" />
[Just tried to sail my boat over land, because I didn't learn from that kid in the Zephyr.]

Boats out on the ocean would take longer to fall. Over the next five seconds, a wave of crashes would spread outward from the continents, as boats struck the continental shelf farther and farther from shore. These boats would be smashed to tiny fragments, killing everyone on board.

After the first six or seven seconds, there would be a brief lull in the ship destruction rate. Continental shelves drop off steeply, and most of the ships out over the deep sea would take a little longer to fall.

The Titanic sank in about two miles of water. After it disappeared beneath the surface, the two halves of the ship took between 5 and 15 minutes to reach the bottom.[2] Without the ocean there, it would have reached the bottom in about 30 seconds, striking it at airliner cruising speed.[3]

Within the first minute, just about every large ship would be on the bottom. The final boat to reach the bottom would probably be a small sailboat or life raft that was crossing an ocean trench when the water vanished. Thanks to low weight and/or drag from the sails, one of these vessels could take many minutes to reach the bottom.

[img]
http://what-if.xkcd.com/imgs/a/103/sailboat.png[/img]
[Also, nothing that says a dog can't play basketball.]

If there were a seaplane floating on the deep ocean, it could conceivably survive, although it would take some luck and quick thinking by the pilot. The plane would initially drop, but as it gained speed it would tend to pull into a glide. After the initial shock, the pilot would have a reasonable amount of time to try to start the engine. Thanks in part to the thicker air, it's possible a seaplane could successfully land on a smooth patch of seabed. If the engine got started, the pilot could also try to fly to shore and land on a runway.

Fish, whales, and dolphins, and nearly all marine life would die immediately. Those near the bottom would suffocate or dessicate, while those near the surface in deeper water would suffer the same fate as boats.


[Seriously? This is like the third time.]

Then the really weird stuff starts.

Without evaporation from lakes and oceans feeding the water cycle, it would stop raining. Without pools of water to drink from, people and most animals would dehydrate and die in a matter of days. Within a few weeks, plants would start withering in the ever-drier air. Within months, mass forest die-offs would begin.[4]

Huge amounts of dry, dead vegetation lead inevitably to fire, and within a few years, most of the world's forests would have burned. Forests store huge amounts of CO2, and this burning would roughly double the amount of greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, accelerating global warming.

All in all, Joanna's scenario would result in virtually all life dying out pretty fast. But then things would get even worse.


[Why can't the questions ever be, like, 'what if I saw a really good movie' or 'what if I adopted a puppy'?]

Without a water cycle to weather rocks, the carbon-silicate feedback system which acts as a long-term thermostat to stabilize climate[5] would shut down. Without this feedback, volcanic CO2 would build up in our atmosphere, leading—in the long term—to scorching temperatures similar to what's happened on Venus.[6]

We were going to lose our oceans anyway. As the Sun gets hotter, eventually water will start escaping through evaporation, and—one way or another—the planet will dry out and heat up. However, the loss of the oceans never seemed like something worth worrying too much about, since it's a billion years in the future. The oceans will be here long after our species is gone.


[I'm gonna be outlived by a body of water!]

Unless Joanna ruins everything.


 insaniak wrote:
Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

When talking about planet wide cities and dystopian futures, real science can get a little sketchy. In the grim darkness of the far future, the water cycle might be a closed one. There are no open bodies of water, just holding tanks, treatment plants, and a lot of pipes. If one cares about the air quality (hint: they don’t) water vapor levels could be monitored and adjusted with teraforming level [de]humidifiers.

People are mostly water. Every one who departs takes a little with them. On the flip size, every pilgrim who dies on holy terra is bringing some water from off planet. What’s the ratio?

   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Mars used to have oceans. When they dried up some of the water escaped from the thin atmosphere on the planet, and the rest got drawn in to the polar ice caps. The exact proportion of water going to each I have no idea, perhaps one of dakka's science gurus can expand on that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/22 01:40:53


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Random thought:

As we enter the space age and start to settle other planets wouldn't water slowly leave the planet every time a human takes off (water in the body & rations). Given, it would be a tiny amount compared to the water on the planet.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Thought moisture was nuked out of existence on Terra?'

Edit

Oceans that is

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/22 03:19:00


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

 Wolfstan wrote:
In the 40k universe the fluff refers to all of the oceans on Earth boiling away, leaving vast deserts. Now as I understand it this would be impossible? The only way that water could physically disappear is for the atmosphere to burn away and it go out into space, or for it to be picked up and transported off world.


According to my limited, and ancient, knowledge of physical chemistry and climatology it would be possible for water vapor to remain in the atmosphere despite the absence of bodies of its liquid state. Granted, that would make Terra's surface uninhabitable without sufficiently advanced teachnology, but 40k functions on rule of cool anyway.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

If water disappeared, it'd most likely have turned into other gases.
The amount of each element on a planet is roughly constant, and 'boiling off' does happen, just not a lot.
Before plants photosynthesised the carbon out of the a lot of the CO2 in the air, the Earth was a poisonous mess. There was water, but the plants used that water to get the O levels up.
Without water, there're no plants, and the gases get poisonous again.
That's once all advanced life has starved or suffocated.

6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 4000 pts - 1000 pts - 1000 pts DS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK https://discord.gg/6Gk7Xyh5Bf 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 sebster wrote:
Mars used to have oceans. When they dried up some of the water escaped from the thin atmosphere on the planet, and the rest got drawn in to the polar ice caps. The exact proportion of water going to each I have no idea, perhaps one of dakka's science gurus can expand on that.


While that is a fascinating hypothesis, which would help explain certain geological (aresological?) features. I think the question of "Where did the water go?" is still a major obstacle.

Venus is thought to have had lush oceans too, but of course the water didn't really go anywhere, it has just become part of the thick toxic atmosphere. Which I suppose answers the OPs question. If the oceans did boil away (which certainly is possible) then the water would go into the atmosphere and most likely stay there. There tends to be a lot of CO2 and other greenhouse gases such as methane dissolved and trapped in rocks (particularly on the ocean floor). If all the water did boil away exposing the ocean floor then 'runaway greenhouse effect' probably wouldn't do justice to the process that follows. It could take millions of years for the Earth to cool sufficiently to re-condense it.

One interesting aspect of having no oceans is that we would see a lot of the deep ocean volcanism laid bare. I have no idea what that would look like. I guess it could be anything from deep chasms to lava lakes. I don't think they would be building on it though (or perhaps that is what all the lava themed bases depict).
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The oceans of Terra were burned away when Horus bombed the ever living crap out of the planet during the Siege of Terra.

However, this doesn't mean all the water is now gone. Terra still has oceans, just far smaller than they used to be. They're mentioned as being there, just buried beneath the city.

After Terra's oceans were violently boiled away, Terra would have experienced super saturation of water. Massive planet wide thunderstorms would have wracked the planet, torrential downpours of boiling water which would evaporate almost instantly, only slowly cooling as time passed. A lot of the water would escape into space due to the upheaval in the atmosphere. But some of it would settle.

Much of the water would still be on Terra, just locked up in living creatures, storage, or transport piping.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in ca
Stormin' Stompa






Ottawa, ON

Is it possible that all the remaining water is held up in people and industry? We know that the planet is covered in cities which would use up a vast quantity of water. Efficient water recycling would keep all water in the system.

Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today? 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Grey Templar wrote:
The oceans of Terra were burned away when Horus bombed the ever living crap out of the planet during the Siege of Terra.


The water was already gone before the Horus Heresy. This is mentioned a couple of times in the books.

I'm not sure how people live without it, but *waves hands* Science!

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





when you boil water it changes phases, to the gas phase. The intermolecular forces that held the various molecules together in effect no longer holding them together due to the large amount of rotation and vibration within the molecular structure of the water atoms.

If the atmosphere was thin, they would disperse into space, if the atmosphere was similar to earths, or any planet that would have large bodies of water for a significant period of time for that matter what would happen is the gaseous water would be trapped by the atmosphere, and would cool off as the molecules vibrate/rotate and transition back to a liquid phase as the temperature returns to normal, condensing as rain and would just fall back down. We know this because when we heat something up it doesn't stay that hot, it returns to a ground state of energy which is related to the temperature of its normal environment.

It could end up with a situation based on the water being carried some distance and redosited not exactly where it came from, but given the natural contours the planet would have which led to the water being where it was in the first place it would most likely end up where it was for the most part.

So yes, your OP is correct. This could not happen.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/22 19:43:41


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





blaktoof wrote:
So yes, your OP is correct. This could not happen.


Except it probably already did happen, on Venus. The VEX probe discovered high levels of deuterium in the Venusian atmosphere which is consistent with the planet once having had oceans. However, a runaway greenhouse effect caused the temperature to rise, and the oceans eventually did boil away. Unable to condense, UV light broke the atoms apart into hydrogen and oxygen, and the hydrogen being very light, has now escaped into space leaving the planet dry.

when we heat something up it doesn't stay that hot, it returns to a ground state of energy which is related to the temperature of its normal environment.


An event hot and violent enough to boil all the oceans spontaneously probably wouldn't leave much of an environment. If it happened gradually then you would expect the normal environment to be greater than 100C, and the extra greenhouse gasses trapped in the water would only drive the temperature higher.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/22 21:29:04


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I appreciate your additional comments, they add to the discussion.

The OPs post was regarding terra/earth. In which case the event could not happen. I might be mistaken, and someone please correct me if I am, but I do not think terras atmosphere has been described in a way similar to venus. I also do not think venus is even inhabited in the 40k setting, but not sure on that one.

This event couldn't happen in the 40k setting because earth/terra does not have an atmosphere like venus. Yes you are correct in a heavy atmoshphere with a lot of greenhouse gas, because of the trapped heat the boiling water could be trapped in the atmosphere unable to escape because such a places standard temp and pressure are different then ours wherein the molecules ground state for water is below boiling conditions, on venus that is not the case.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/23 15:49:50


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





blaktoof wrote:
Yes you are correct in a heavy atmoshphere with a lot of greenhouse gas, because of the trapped heat the boiling water could be trapped in the atmosphere unable to escape because such a places standard temp and pressure are different then ours wherein the molecules ground state for water is below boiling conditions, on venus that is not the case.


Venus didn't always have a heavy atmosphere. Many scientist believe that it was once very similar to Earth, that it had oceans, and of course it sits just inside what we consider to be the 'habitable zone' for planets. It's possible that simple bacteria may even have evolved there once. The major difference between Earth and Venus is that Venus is spinning the wrong way. Probably because a collision during the early part of the solar system turned it upside-down. It also has an extremely long day (longer than its own year), so it doesn't have a strong magnetic field like the Earth does. Earth's magnetic field is very important in deflecting solar radiation, without it the planet would be very different.

On Venus, without the protection of a strong magnetic field greenhouse gasses began to poison the atmosphere. The problem is self perpetuating. As the temperature rises and the water evaporates, more and more greenhouse gases which are usually dissolved in rocks and water become active. Now Venus is a very different place: the surface is dry and blistering hot, and the atmospheric pressure is colossal.

Obviously, if this can happen on an 'Earthlike' planet, then it stands to reason it could also 'potentially' happen on Earth. This is why Venus is of such great interest to scientist studying climate change.

Needless to say, the oceans boiling away would change the the atmosphere cataclysmically. You can't just assume that the water would go up and then come straight back down the and be the same as before. A lot would depend on how it boiled in the first place and why and how long for.

But anyway: according to the fluff it did happen, and according to science it can happen. Do I think it's silly? Yes completely. It doesn't make any sense that all the oceans would boil away in 28,000 years (the blink of an eye geologically) and people would still live here and the planet still be bearable. I agree it's stupid and badly thought out... But it's not impossible.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/23 17:15:00


 
   
 
Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum
Go to: