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Okay. Here's the scenario that will likely arise in a few weeks' time:

I will have a Baneblade in a list similar to this:


My opponent likes to take triple predators (mix of AT and AI firepower *glued* on each of them), and as many razorbacks and rhinos as possible. He's also of the philosophy that a lascannon can do everything. He also has a couple of grav weapons, and likes to take out Russes with krak grenade scouts.

For the last 7 years, I have not won a single victory against him, and we both have done a lot of non-cheesy fluff builds. So for once, I'd like to take my Russes and ram them up his UM-shaped arse.

However. I'm having difficulty with knowing just how hard a Baneblade is/isn't to kill. While my opponent isn't adverse to me taking one (as long as it does not use Str D), I'm wondering if it will be a little on the overkill side.

I'm also wondering how reliable it will be at holding the line.

If it doesn't use Str D it isn't a baneblade, you could proxy as a macharius instead. They are not that hard to kill, though don't expect to kill it in one turn.

Aye. If you are not planning on taking Str D weapons, then look into other FW publications as you will get more bang for your buck.

Baneblades are far from unkillable, if he has any kind of deep striking melta squad and you leave side or rear armor open he will probably be able to kill it just as easy as a land raider. I'm sure the mathhammer is out there for how many melta shots you would need but it seems like people have this unfounded picture that superheavys are just unkillable.

Not that you shouldn't exploit this to your advantage...

 Sigvatr wrote:
Aye. If you are not planning on taking Str D weapons, then look into other FW publications as you will get more bang for your buck.

Sadly he's of the 4E mindset that FW is never allowed in 40k, even when it's labelled "40k approved".
He does have a DS'ing terminator squad (with Lysander if needed), and is able to proxy a pair of drop pods for some Sternguard with combi-weapons. However, he's somehow certain that anything within 24" of the 'blade will just suddenly drop dead "because it also has a Demolisher Cannon", which he has often cited as being reason enough to not take the Volcano Cannon version in Apoc games.
He's a strange fellow, but he never lets go of his beliefs on the subject, despite having never seen a SH vehicle IRL.

Oh noooooo, a Demolisher Cannon. Ask his opinions on the Vindicator, see if he thinks it's OP.

What's the variant with the S10 ignore cover blast?
That's as close to SD as you can get and I believe it forgoes the Demolisher Cannon

Take a Stormsword (it's cheaper than a stock Baneblade) and murder his everything with a 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover blast.

No FW and no SH is an awfully closed-minded and outdated mindset. Frankly you have to put a lot of support into a baneblade since they are very vulnerable to DS melta units and assaults. So, use multiple other high-threat units (Demolishers, meltavets charging, etc) to force him to choose what to focus on.

Having some psychic support to get Prescience and Forewarning on stuff would be great too.

I'd run Pask with a Vanquisher and an Executioner, ML2 Primaris, PCS with two flamers for objective grabbing, two Infantry Squads (Sgt with Axe/meltabomb), vets with AC for back end objective sitting, Vendetta, two Demolishers, and a Stormsword. Should be 1750.

Blob bubblewraps the Stormsword, Demos flanking with Pask wherever he's needed.

The Hellhammer is the one with a Str10 Ignores Cover Ap1 shot. With a 7" blast, too. 36" range, and a Demolisher Cannon.

The Stormsword has much the same gun, but is not turreted, and has a 10" blast. No demo cannon though.

In terms of support for the tank, I'm gonna go easy on it for the first game, and probably let him destroy it, to show that it is not unstoppable, but after that, all bets are off.
The Baneblade shall be the hammer, and the rest of the army is the stick that swings it. I like your idea, sela, as it looks pretty scary, though I've been tabled with heavier stuff than that (excl. the baneblade) before.

Taking a closer look at the variants, I'm warming up to them much more now, while 36" won't out range his lascannons, it will cover most of the board, and there is nowhere to hide. I'll go with the Hellhammer for this game, as I get to keep the demo cannon for short-range threats, and turrets are more maneuverable than the actual hull.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or, y'know, the stormsword. Looking at the points cost.

sela wrote:
Take a Stormsword (it's cheaper than a stock Baneblade) and murder his everything with a 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover blast.

No FW and no SH is an awfully closed-minded and outdated mindset. Frankly you have to put a lot of support into a baneblade since they are very vulnerable to DS melta units and assaults. So, use multiple other high-threat units (Demolishers, meltavets charging, etc) to force him to choose what to focus on.

Having some psychic support to get Prescience and Forewarning on stuff would be great too.

I'd run Pask with a Vanquisher and an Executioner, ML2 Primaris, PCS with two flamers for objective grabbing, two Infantry Squads (Sgt with Axe/meltabomb), vets with AC for back end objective sitting, Vendetta, two Demolishers, and a Stormsword. Should be 1750.

Blob bubblewraps the Stormsword, Demos flanking with Pask wherever he's needed.

Nothing closed minded or outdated about not wanting to play FW or SH units. Just FW in general can be hard to get the rules on and understand what your up against, not to mention the occacionally stupid powered combos that can crop up. I personally don't like to play against them for that reason. If I have time to bone up on what ti can do then okay. As to SH, those really still don't belong on a standard 40k table, the models are just to gakking big in most cases. On the actual play side there are a few solid reasons to not like playing them, your army has few or very poor ways to actually damage SH's in the core codex (nids), your army lacks any decent 40k approved of it's own (SOB,Tau), and finally you might just not like how they change the game play dynamics.

That said an UM list should not have much trouble mulching a Baneblade or most IG SH Tanks. Heavy Armor just sorta falls short against good Marine lists. Between Lascannon fire and long range Melta in the mid to short, and finally Chainfists in your face, just to many ways to tear it up. In fact SH's kinda make a chainfist worth the upgrade cost.

barnowl wrote:

sela wrote:
Take a Stormsword (it's cheaper than a stock Baneblade) and murder his everything with a 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover blast.

No FW and no SH is an awfully closed-minded and outdated mindset. Frankly you have to put a lot of support into a baneblade since they are very vulnerable to DS melta units and assaults. So, use multiple other high-threat units (Demolishers, meltavets charging, etc) to force him to choose what to focus on.

Having some psychic support to get Prescience and Forewarning on stuff would be great too.

I'd run Pask with a Vanquisher and an Executioner, ML2 Primaris, PCS with two flamers for objective grabbing, two Infantry Squads (Sgt with Axe/meltabomb), vets with AC for back end objective sitting, Vendetta, two Demolishers, and a Stormsword. Should be 1750.

Blob bubblewraps the Stormsword, Demos flanking with Pask wherever he's needed.

Nothing closed minded or outdated about not wanting to play FW or SH units. Just FW in general can be hard to get the rules on and understand what your up against, not to mention the occacionally stupid powered combos that can crop up. I personally don't like to play against them for that reason. If I have time to bone up on what ti can do then okay.

Whenever I'm planning to bring a new thing to the table in a friendly game, I give a good week or longer notice (in this case it's about 4+ weeks given my and my opponent's schedules), and I always give them a copy, or at least a read through of the relevant rules when bringing the subject up. So he's not exactly going in blind.

 Big Mac wrote:
If it doesn't use Str D it isn't a baneblade, you could proxy as a macharius instead. They are not that hard to kill, though don't expect to kill it in one turn.

Pretty sure the Baneblade does not come with a D strength weapon. It has an S9 AP2 10" blast weapon.
However, the Shadowsword (which is similar to the Baneblade) does have str D.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
If it doesn't use Str D it isn't a baneblade, you could proxy as a macharius instead. They are not that hard to kill, though don't expect to kill it in one turn.

Pretty sure the Baneblade does not come with a D strength weapon. It has an S9 AP2 10" blast weapon.
However, the Shadowsword (which is similar to the Baneblade) does have str D.

In the Apoc book, there are several variants of Baneblade, and only one of them takes Str D.

Most main guns are like really big battlecannons.

 Selym wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:
If it doesn't use Str D it isn't a baneblade, you could proxy as a macharius instead. They are not that hard to kill, though don't expect to kill it in one turn.

Pretty sure the Baneblade does not come with a D strength weapon. It has an S9 AP2 10" blast weapon.
However, the Shadowsword (which is similar to the Baneblade) does have str D.

In the Apoc book, there are several variants of Baneblade, and only one of them takes Str D.

Most main guns are like really big battlecannons.

Yes, and that variant is the Shadowsword.

The shadow sword would probably be a bad choice for what you need. Take something with a couple nasty pie plates and make damn sure that he can't get the meltaguns in. The baneblade is not unkillable, but when well defended it can be a great platform to put out some hurt.

I honestly do think that forgeworld has a bad habit of making some of their models broken due to under-costing for effect, but that isn't the case with all of their models. Most of their rules are balanced. My biggest problem with forge world is that they often make some of their models insanely complicated in terms of rules, which can cause a game to drag on and be generally obnoxious. I think banning forge-world models outright is stupid all in all.

I actually find escalation rules for super-heavies to be perfectly fine for general 40k. The only super-heavy models that I refuse to play against are all imperial knight lists in regular 40k. The damn things wouldn't bother me if you couldn't take them as your entire army. Taking ONE doesn't bother me however.

One example is that I played against a Minotaur player only yesterday whom chose to take a imperial knight. The game was well balanced and I lost due to some less than savory dice rolls.

To be honest if your opponent is against D weapons then he is just a poor player. The only models that break D weapons are the eldar titan that can fire 4 large blasts and the necron dude that can fly across the board and fire D weapons.

A shadow sword with 1 D large blast isnt really anything to be afraid of. The new changes to D weapons nerfed them very hard. with cover being very prevalent and easy to get many D shots can be deflected away. Only on a 6 does a destroyer weapon do crazy damage and ignore cover and invuln saves, otherwise units can take cover and invuln as normal.

Cover saves literally ruined my experience with a shadow sword. Its large blast has a very good chance of scattering so it is possible to hit less of a squad you were firing at or even miss a vehicle or monstrous creature. The blast cant hit flyers. Also when the super heavy dies a lot of things around it will die.

Actually, the Hellhammer is much worse than a D weapon. It's main weapon is Str 10, ap1, Ignores Cover and a 7 inch blast!

It also still has the Demolisher cannon, autocannon and heavy bolter, though I am not a fan of sponsons. 100 points for 2 lascannons and 2 TL Heavy Bolters? No thanks.

 Madness! wrote:
Actually, the Hellhammer is much worse than a D weapon. It's main weapon is Str 10, ap1, Ignores Cover and a 7 inch blast!

It also still has the Demolisher cannon, autocannon and heavy bolter, though I am not a fan of sponsons. 100 points for 2 lascannons and 2 TL Heavy Bolters? No thanks.

It's 50 points for each set of sponsons. And you can take 2.

Considering that lascannons are usually priced at 15-20 pts each, and HB at 10 pts each, you're looking at a value of 25-30 pts per sponson, and then you get a twin-linked upgrade on the bolter for free.
Worth it, imo.

The hellhamer does at least guarantee that the opponent won't be able to hide from the shot, if it hits.

Selym wrote:The Hellhammer is the one with a Str10 Ignores Cover Ap1 shot. With a 7" blast, too. 36" range, and a Demolisher Cannon.

The Stormsword has much the same gun, but is not turreted, and has a 10" blast. No demo cannon though.

In terms of support for the tank, I'm gonna go easy on it for the first game, and probably let him destroy it, to show that it is not unstoppable, but after that, all bets are off.
The Baneblade shall be the hammer, and the rest of the army is the stick that swings it. I like your idea, sela, as it looks pretty scary, though I've been tabled with heavier stuff than that (excl. the baneblade) before.

Taking a closer look at the variants, I'm warming up to them much more now, while 36" won't out range his lascannons, it will cover most of the board, and there is nowhere to hide. I'll go with the Hellhammer for this game, as I get to keep the demo cannon for short-range threats, and turrets are more maneuverable than the actual hull.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or, y'know, the stormsword. Looking at the points cost.

As you said, Hellhammer is even more points to sink into a single model that isn't exactly invincible. Key with Baneblade variants is to keep them cheap so you can bring other stuff to support them. It's also literally impossible to miss your target with a Stormsword. Don't forget Primary Weapon allows you to roll two dice and pick the highest for armor pen a la Ordnance weapons. If he bunches up all his tanks then make him pay.

barnowl wrote:

sela wrote:
Take a Stormsword (it's cheaper than a stock Baneblade) and murder his everything with a 10" S10 AP1 Ignores Cover blast.

No FW and no SH is an awfully closed-minded and outdated mindset. Frankly you have to put a lot of support into a baneblade since they are very vulnerable to DS melta units and assaults. So, use multiple other high-threat units (Demolishers, meltavets charging, etc) to force him to choose what to focus on.

Having some psychic support to get Prescience and Forewarning on stuff would be great too.

I'd run Pask with a Vanquisher and an Executioner, ML2 Primaris, PCS with two flamers for objective grabbing, two Infantry Squads (Sgt with Axe/meltabomb), vets with AC for back end objective sitting, Vendetta, two Demolishers, and a Stormsword. Should be 1750.

Blob bubblewraps the Stormsword, Demos flanking with Pask wherever he's needed.

Nothing closed minded or outdated about not wanting to play FW or SH units. Just FW in general can be hard to get the rules on and understand what your up against, not to mention the occacionally stupid powered combos that can crop up. I personally don't like to play against them for that reason. If I have time to bone up on what ti can do then okay. As to SH, those really still don't belong on a standard 40k table, the models are just to gakking big in most cases. On the actual play side there are a few solid reasons to not like playing them, your army has few or very poor ways to actually damage SH's in the core codex (nids), your army lacks any decent 40k approved of it's own (SOB,Tau), and finally you might just not like how they change the game play dynamics.

That said an UM list should not have much trouble mulching a Baneblade or most IG SH Tanks. Heavy Armor just sorta falls short against good Marine lists. Between Lascannon fire and long range Melta in the mid to short, and finally Chainfists in your face, just to many ways to tear it up. In fact SH's kinda make a chainfist worth the upgrade cost.

Doing a bit of research on some of the more broken models that FW puts out (along with looking through your opponent's list before you start) should be everything you need. SH aren't impossible to deal with as they cost a huge amount of points. Especially given he's playing a marine mech list.