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So a guy i play with is trying to give really anything tyranid 3+ cover saves with intervening models and venomthrope shroud.

First off, hes wanting to do two squads of gaunts checker boarded together so that no matter which squad you shoot at, theres the majority of the squad hidden by the other one so he gets an intervening model save, venomthropes follow the gaunts so they get an intervening model save plus the shroud so theyre all sitting at 3+. It makes enough sense to me but at the same time just feels wrong, is mixing a unit like that legal?

Second, if theres a single gaunt standing between a squad of marines and a hive tyrant they are shooting at, is that hive tyrant gonna get int. model? I see the brb says that int. model saves are done like terrain so you need to cover 25 percent of the model and the gaunt definitely doesnt. if he doesnt, would two gaunts being there change that?

And last, by true line of sight do they mean literally from the models eyes/weapon/base? for purposes of seeing over another model that could create an intervening model save. basically would a wraithknight shooting at a tyrant at 24", with a warrior squad at 12", give an int. model save? If its from his eyes, then no save since he can easily see over the top of them, from the base there would be a save because the warriors will cover atleast 25 percent. I suppose vehicles and buildings are the only ones your measuring from the gun but if its high enough the same situation as the wraithknight happens

 inquisitormaus wrote:
First off, hes wanting to do two squads of gaunts checker boarded together so that no matter which squad you shoot at, theres the majority of the squad hidden by the other one so he gets an intervening model save, venomthropes follow the gaunts so they get an intervening model save plus the shroud so theyre all sitting at 3+. It makes enough sense to me but at the same time just feels wrong, is mixing a unit like that legal?

This is not legit. Cover is done model by model since 6th edition. It isn't the squad that gets cover, it is each individual model. So part of a squad can have a 5+ cover, while the rest of it has a 3+, and one model in ruins with shroud has a 2+.

 inquisitormaus wrote:
Second, if theres a single gaunt standing between a squad of marines and a hive tyrant they are shooting at, is that hive tyrant gonna get int. model? I see the brb says that int. model saves are done like terrain so you need to cover 25 percent of the model and the gaunt definitely doesnt. if he doesnt, would two gaunts being there change that?

Read a bit closer. 25% is only required for Vehicles to get intervening models. MC's get intervening models if any part of the model is obscured. Now, you can game this a bit, as line of sight no longer comes from the model's eyes. It can be any part of the body or lets. The tip of a tail in some cases. If no part of the MC is obscured from a given point on a model, then it does not get intervening models.

 inquisitormaus wrote:
And last, by true line of sight do they mean literally from the models eyes/weapon/base? for purposes of seeing over another model that could create an intervening model save. basically would a wraithknight shooting at a tyrant at 24", with a warrior squad at 12", give an int. model save? If its from his eyes, then no save since he can easily see over the top of them, from the base there would be a save because the warriors will cover atleast 25 percent. I suppose vehicles and buildings are the only ones your measuring from the gun but if its high enough the same situation as the wraithknight happens

Are you looking at the 6th edition rule book? 7th Edition clearly states that Line of Sight can be drawn from any point on the model.

tag8833 wrote:

 inquisitormaus wrote:
Second, if theres a single gaunt standing between a squad of marines and a hive tyrant they are shooting at, is that hive tyrant gonna get int. model? I see the brb says that int. model saves are done like terrain so you need to cover 25 percent of the model and the gaunt definitely doesnt. if he doesnt, would two gaunts being there change that?

Read a bit closer. 25% is only required for Vehicles to get intervening models. MC's get intervening models if any part of the model is obscured. Now, you can game this a bit, as line of sight no longer comes from the model's eyes. It can be any part of the body or lets. The tip of a tail in some cases. If no part of the MC is obscured from a given point on a model, then it does not get intervening models.

There is some contention on this, as intervening models provide cover "in the same way" as terrain... and terrain requires 25% obscurement.
This debate, however, can lead to pages and pages of discussion; so I try and avoid it.
Also, I can't check, but usually when the book talks about body, they mean head, torso, legs, arms... and do not count things like tails, wings, etc. Not sure if LoS is the exception

And regardless of how you feel about the first question, the target model can be fully visible, and still get a cover save, if the LoS goes between the intervening models.
Also, if the LoS goes completely above (or below) the intervening models, then no cover save.

Not really sure how there can be much of a debate, if I remember correctly the Rule also states something along the lines of 'regardless of how much is obscured....'

coredump wrote:
Also, I can't check, but usually when the book talks about body, they mean head, torso, legs, arms... and do not count things like tails, wings, etc. Not sure if LoS is the exception

Correct. LOS is no exception. from the rule book: "For one model to have line of sight to another, you must be able to trace a straight, unblocked line from its body (the head, torso, arms, or Legs) to any part of the target's body."

coredump wrote:
There is some contention on this, as intervening models provide cover "in the same way" as terrain... and terrain requires 25% obscurement.
This debate, however, can lead to pages and pages of discussion; so I try and avoid it.

The rule is clear: "If a target is paritally obscured from the firer by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit or from the target unit), it recieves a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain.
Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover even if it is completely visible to the firer. Not that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit, either because the firer has an elevated position or is firing a Barrage weapon, rather than through it."
That is not ambiguous. It doesn't require 25%. I have no doubt that there are pages and pages of internet debate about this point, but I think mainly that is people who like to argue, with lots of tangents and personal attacks. The rule is clear.

Word, thanks guys. I dont want to get into that argument eithet haha

tag8833 wrote:

coredump wrote:
There is some contention on this, as intervening models provide cover "in the same way" as terrain... and terrain requires 25% obscurement.
This debate, however, can lead to pages and pages of discussion; so I try and avoid it.

The rule is clear: "If a target is paritally obscured from the firer by models from a third unit (models not from the firer's unit or from the target unit), it recieves a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind terrain.

Yes, it receives a cover same **in the same way* as if behind terrain. So the question is... "What is the way a model receives a cove save when behind terrain. It receives it if it is obscured by at least 25%. That is the *way* that it receives a cover save. Since intervening models work the "same way"... intervening models also require a 25% obscurement.

Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover even if it is completely visible to the firer.

That is correct. Please realize that being 'in cover' is *NOT* the same as 'gets a cover save'. If 5% of a model is obscured by terrain, it is 'in cover', but it only gets a cover save if it is obscured by at least 25%. And from above, we know that intervening models work the "same way".
That passage means that the gaps between also count as cover, and if that cover is enough to obscure by 25%... then they also get a cover save.

That is not ambiguous. It doesn't require 25%. I have no doubt that there are pages and pages of internet debate about this point, but I think mainly that is people who like to argue, with lots of tangents and personal attacks. The rule is clear.

I agree that it is not ambiguous... the rule explicitly states that being 'in cover' is not the same as 'gets a cover save', the rule is also very explicit that terrain requires 25% obscurement, and the rules are very explicit that intervening models work the same way as terrain.

And look... no tangents, no personal attacks... and I tried to *avoid* this argument... you wanted to pursue it. (But hey, thanks for the implied insults... it couldn't *possibly* be that someone disagrees for a rational reason or anything....)

coredump wrote:
And look... no tangents, no personal attacks... and I tried to *avoid* this argument... you wanted to pursue it. (But hey, thanks for the implied insults... it couldn't *possibly* be that someone disagrees for a rational reason or anything....)

No insult intended. I really do think people will make an argument even if they don't have basis in rules especially for something that disproportionately benefits one army over another. Tyranids being the clear beneficiary of intervening models.

We are clearly reading different things even though we are reading the same words, so arguments would indeed be fruitless.

Coredump,
Keep in mind that they have defined 'In cover' and 'behind cover' as two completely different things when it comes to Terrain, showing that it is entirely possible for non-vehicle Models to be 'in cover' without being 25% obscured.

So just to make sure, is the wraithknight shooting over a gaunt going to give int model?

 inquisitormaus wrote:
So just to make sure, is the wraithknight shooting over a gaunt going to give int model?

I use a laser pointer to check, but usually a Wraith Knight is so tall that you don't get intervening models. One of the many reasons I fear playing Wraith Knights.

So can you just measure with your pointer from anywhere on the wraithknight?

JinxDragon wrote:
Coredump,
Keep in mind that they have defined 'In cover' and 'behind cover' as two completely different things when it comes to Terrain, showing that it is entirely possible for non-vehicle Models to be 'in cover' without being 25% obscured.

Yep, kind of my exact point.

Under Cover Saves: "Often, you’ll find enemy models are partially hidden or obscured by terrain, which is also known as being in cover."

So all you need is to be 'partially hidden' to be 'in cover'. But that is *not* enough to get a cover save.

the next section is Determining Cover Saves: "If...the target model’s body is at least 25% obscured from the point of view of at least one firer, Wounds allocated to that model receive a cover save."

Being 'in cover' is not enough, you must be at least 25% obscured. That is the "way" you get a cover save from terrain.



Now, if you were referring to the section about terrain... there are two issues with that.
1) Your quotes are incorrect, what they defined is "in cover behind" a piece of terrain, and being "in" a piece of terrain.
2) It very specifically states that these definitions were for "When one of the following rules refers to a model being..." The section on Intervening models is *not* one of the following rules; it is covered much earlier in the Shooting Phase, which is where I pulled the above rules from.

1) I didn't quote anything though.... I pointed out where they had documented other situations of Models that are "in cover" even though they are less then 25% Obscured
2) Yet the Intervening model Rules are not specific enough when they state the Model is "in cover" even if it is completely visible to the firing model?

 inquisitormaus wrote:
So can you just measure with your pointer from anywhere on the wraithknight?

Anywhere on the Arms, Head, Torso, or Legs. And the person doing the shooting gets to pick the point.

Aweaome thank you

JinxDragon wrote:
1) I didn't quote anything though.... I pointed out where they had documented other situations of Models that are "in cover" even though they are less then 25% Obscured
2) Yet the Intervening model Rules are not specific enough when they state the Model is "in cover" even if it is completely visible to the firing model?

1) Well, you put 'in cover' and 'behind cover' in quotes... so those are your quotes.
You stated that they defined 'in cover' and they defined 'behind cover'.... that is incorrect. They defined being "in cover behind" terrain, and being "in" terrain.
But they also were very specific that these short cut terms were for the following terrain rules.

2) The intervening model rules are very specific, and yes target models where the LoS goes through the gaps are still considered 'in cover'.... please show where that means they also get a cover save.
Under Cover Saves, all it takes to be 'in cover' is to be 'partially obscured', which is *not* enough to get a cover save.

I did see some very practical advice for the checkerboard gambit. Because you move squad by squad, insist on exacting measurement for every model. The front line can move up, but if they do the second line has to move around the models in the second squad. It's going to cost him a couple inches every move, which is terrible for him.

Furthermore, as tag mentioned, cover is model by model. The front line has no intervening models, so they get at most a 5+. Kill that row, then start shooting the second squad. You will minimize any 3+ saves that way.

Checkerboards are legal but as pointed out a bit silly. Just kill the venomthrope first

The Hive Tyrant would not get a cover save as it is not 25% obscured.

LOS is from any part of the shooter to the target. Wraithknights will shoot over most things. The laser pointer is a good thing to carry with you for questionable LOS issues.