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To avoid late to the party posts that just reopen already discussed and cleared things, please read this:

Completely OOS units and their interaction with Blast weapons is cleared.

Multiple Floors and Blasts/Templates are cleared.

Questions, answers and rulings/interpretations of these above questions can be found in the thread, let's not create continuum by opening them a second time, for now, to keep the thread coherent!

-

Original start of thread:

So yeah, I found this thread on the matter:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/607520.page

-but I couldn't make anything out of it. I play 40K like the rules dictate, so please discard any houserule suggestions and instead provide the ruling that solves the issue along with it's source.

Question 1:

How do Template -weapons and LOS work? I found a BAO FAQ -quote on the thread above, saying:

"Models completely out of LoS of the firing unit can be hit by a template weapon and add wounds to the wound pool for the shooting attack. However, unless the template weapon does not require LoS, models completely of out of LoS of the firing unit cannot have unsaved wounds allocated to them, and so cannot be removed as casualties. Similarly, a template cannot affect vehicles that are completely out of the firing unit’s LoS either (unless the weapon does not require LoS, of course)."

So according to this you cannot Wound OOS models with a Template -weapon unless it doesn't need LOS. Is this the case or is it something else?


Question 2:

The way I see it, Blast -weapons hit all targets that are even partially under the Blast -marker regardless of the floor of a ruin they're in. I couldn't find anything contradicting this in the rulebook. Is this correct?


Question 3:

Another Blast -issue, regarding LoS and wounding. How does this work? In the rulebook, on page 158 it is said:

Once the final position of the blast marker has been determined, take a good look at it from above – each unit suffers one hit for each of their models which is fully or partially beneath the blast marker, even if those models are not within the firer’s line of sight. Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll To Wound and save as normal. Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit.

So hits can be done to units OOS. Then it is stated to roll to Wound and save "as normal" - normal in my view meaning the normal procedure, meaning no wounds against OOS models. BUT, then it states the wound must be allocated to the closest model even if it is out of sight - contradicting all before. So how does this really work?

Question 1. There is no rule preventing templates and blasts from generating hits off of models are out of sight.

2. I'm going to assume you meant Ruins, and not Buildings, because you can not target a unit inside a Building. It has been argued quite a bit. One side says the models are under the blast marker and therefore generate hits. The other side says the model is not directly beneath the marker as the floor of the ruins is in the way therefore only visible models generate hits. I'll let them argue about it back and forth till they piss off a mod.

3. As long as there is a model in the target unit visible, then Wounds can be allocated to closer models that are out of sight. As soon as no models in the target unit are visible, the "Out of Sight" rule kicks in. It is debatable whether or not GW intended for Blasts to be able to Wound units even when the entire unit is out of sight.

 Happyjew wrote:
Question 1. There is no rule preventing templates and blasts from generating hits off of models are out of sight.

Yeah hits are given, but the main point in my question is Wounding. As Wounds cannot be allocated to OOS models, but are instead lost from the Wound pool. Fixed the "buildings" into "ruins", thanks for that.

 Happyjew wrote:
The other side says the model is not directly beneath the marker as the floor of the ruins is in the way therefore only visible models generate hits.

I don´t see visibility under the template being required/even discussed anywhere within the rulebook, so I'm going to assume all models are hit. They are still under the template regardless if they are visible or not.

 RunicFIN wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Question 1. There is no rule preventing templates and blasts from generating hits off of models are out of sight.

Yeah hits are given, but the main point in my question is Wounding. As Wounds cannot be allocated to OOS models, but are instead lost from the Wound pool. Fixed the "buildings" into "ruins", thanks for that.

Checking the number of models hit and rolling To Wound does not require Line of Sight. It's only when you get around to allocating wounding hits that you need to make sure the model is in LOS.

 Happyjew wrote:
The other side says the model is not directly beneath the marker as the floor of the ruins is in the way therefore only visible models generate hits.

I don´t see visibility under the template being required/even discussed anywhere within the rulebook, so I'm going to assume all models are hit. They are still under the template regardless if they are visible or not.

The argument is the parenthetical remark under General Principles > Blast Markers and Templates: "[look] through [the template], if using a transparent template". The problem with that argument is that it is only telling you to look through the template to see how many models are underneath. You do not necessarily need to see something to know it would be underneath.

Or just spray paint your template an opaque colour and avoid the whole argument.

 Cheexsta wrote:

Or just spray paint your template an opaque colour and avoid the whole argument.

Brilliant.

Okay so this came up once again. Now I have the following question:

Since the general assumption seems to be ( ? ) that the Wound Pool is emptied ( even if the Wounds can be allocated to OOS models ) with Blast weapons and thus OOS models cannot get killed by them...

...then what gives indirect Barrage the permission of not emptying the Wound Pool by applying this same logic?

Indirect Barrage follows the same rules. The difference is that for Barrage, the LOS is taken from the blast marker rather than from the shooter.

Now I had a hunch this might be the case, so what happens in this situation then:



In short, the "Barrages LOS" is blocked. What then? The OOS rule kicks in once again as the situation is now the same as with a normal Blast ( kinda ) and the "OOS from the centre of the Barrage" -models cannot die, as the Barrage "doesn't have LOS" to them, causing the Wound Pool to empty again? Or wut?

If there are no models in LOS, the wound pool empties.

Roger that. Fun stuff. Thank you insaniak.

Edit: There is one thing pointed out to me that I forgot from my diagram:

-From what height is "Barrages Line Of Sight" measured? Is it from the ground, or where?

-If it's from the ground, can another enemy unit therefore block a Barrage Blast from affecting another enemy unit ( extreme example: Base to base troopers in a circle around the centre of the Barrage, blocking its LOS to the other unit. )

( Aka, imagine my diagram and replace the box with enemy units forming b2b walls around the centre of the blast. )

 RunicFIN wrote:
-From what height is "Barrages Line Of Sight" measured? Is it from the ground, or where?

The current Blast rules don't deal well with 3 dimensions.

It's from the centre of the marker, not the point on the ground underneath it. So it will be different if you hold the marker half an inch, or 12", or 36" above the table. Yay for 7th edition

Allright. What about the bit regarding a model/models blocking the LOS of Barrage?

So like, if a Barrage Blasts centre is surrounded by a B2B circle of models, is the Barrages LOS blocked by them?

I'd say yes, since models do block LOS, but..?

 RunicFIN wrote:
Allright. What about the bit regarding a model/models blocking the LOS of Barrage?

So like, if a Barrage Blasts centre is surrounded by a B2B circle of models, is the Barrages LOS blocked by them?

I'd say yes, since models do block LOS, but..?

Models don't block LoS to models in their own unit. But it would block LoS to other units

More reason to resolve that Unit first, open up more Line of Sight paths to any secondary Unit also being struck.
That is ignoring the whole 'just hold it higher above the battlefield' answer, of course... yay indeed.

Yeah, if there is a unit (or terrain) in the way, there's really no good reason (at least ruleswise...) to not just hold the marker high enough up that the obstruction is no longer in the way.

Hello again. Here are other 2 scenarios off which a gaming buddy of mine made a diagram. A whole unit being completely out of sight from the start till the end is now clear. This is about seeing one model in the target unit. ( now that I think of it, isn't it just a normal situation and I would presume the Wound Pool doesn't empty at all but... I guess... brain... dying... here goes anyway so it's all clear: )

The question is, what happens in these two scenarios? Note, the weapon is NOT Barrage in the example:


These scenarios now impose the following questions:

-There is one model in LOS in both examples, and 4 OOS. Does the Wound Pool now empty by 4 Wounds ( the OOS ones ) and if so where is this dictated, or does it not empty at all ( 5 Wounds remain to be allocated. ) It certainly does not empty completely, because there are models ( one ) in Line of Sight and OOS only talks about no models ( any ) not being in line of sight and the pool therefore emptying.

-Is it correct that the black Nob doesn't "save" his buddies by dying "first" in the first scenario, as the Wound Pool either doesn't empty/empties partially before Wounds are allocated ( to him, and possibly others. ) What I mean by this is that according to the presumed order of events, he cannot die off, causing a complete OOS, therefore emptying the remaining 4 Wounds from the pool, because it has already happened before allocation, including him?

-TL;DR: What happens in scenario 2? ( Need to know how the Wound Pool acts incase one model is in LOS first. ) The black LOS model is the furthest of the bunch, and the only visible one. Do we apply the Blast rule here, meaning that the remaining Wound ( supposing the Wound Pool only empties OOS wounds and we are left with one Wound for allocation ) according to it, aka to the closest OOS model and he then dies? OR, if all the Wounds are left in the Wound Pool, then what happens?

Alternatively, can you just explain what happens in both scenarios and why. If in any way possible, include the whys and whats so there will be no more uncertainty. Thank you beforehand. This is quite the ride...

I didnt read all of this, but wanted to put in my opinion with an example.


If you target model A with your blast, and just for instance it scatters 12 inches, behind a building, the models under it still take hits and wounds. You do not need LOS to damage a unit with a template, just to fire it.

6th edition the rule stating that models on different levels of ruins cannot be hit if targeting a model on say the top floor the bottom ones couldnt be hit, is removed, so that is no longer a restriction on templates/blasts. If there is a model under it, it gets hit/wounded!

chadbrochill17 wrote:
I didnt read all of this, but wanted to put in my opinion with an example.


If you target model A with your blast, and just for instance it scatters 12 inches, behind a building, the models under it still take hits and wounds. You do not need LOS to damage a unit with a template, just to fire it.

6th edition the rule stating that models on different levels of ruins cannot be hit if targeting a model on say the top floor the bottom ones couldnt be hit, is removed, so that is no longer a restriction on templates/blasts. If there is a model under it, it gets hit/wounded!

If there are no models in line of Sight when the blast scatters 12 inches behind a building then the wound pool would empty. You most certainly need Line of Sight to at least one model in a unit to be able to damage it with a blast marker.

chadbrochill17 wrote:
I didnt read all of this, but wanted to put in my opinion with an example.


If you target model A with your blast, and just for instance it scatters 12 inches, behind a building, the models under it still take hits and wounds. You do not need LOS to damage a unit with a template, just to fire it.

6th edition the rule stating that models on different levels of ruins cannot be hit if targeting a model on say the top floor the bottom ones couldnt be hit, is removed, so that is no longer a restriction on templates/blasts. If there is a model under it, it gets hit/wounded!

Cheers for your input. The "under the template bit" is already cleared ( sort of ) but extra confirmation doesn't hurt. The Blast + unit that is completely OOS is also clear, but it might work differently that you think ( completely OOS units cannot die to a scattering blast in the end, even if they can have to hit -and to wound- rolls made against them because of the Wound Pool emptying before allocation as per the rule on page 35. Wounds are allocated from the pool, which empties before allocation, if there are no models in Line of Sight in the unit. )

I recommend reading the whole thing ( to anyone responding, to avoid the whole thing from starting from the beginning. )

Edit: DeathReaper, do you have answers to the latest bunch of questions? ( 2 black and white diagrams above. )

Be a little more thorough DeathReaper, the guy admitted to not reading the thread and likely has not read the one which spawned it either. Without all that previous information, it is probably the poster does not understand why the Pool is emptying. The Rule in question, written and terrible as it is, forces all Wounds to be discarded as soon as there are no visible Models to allocate them to. It is pretty black and white at this point, though I am not giving it a complete work over to say for certain. All we can state for certainty is this Rule, if correct, renders every Weapon which has permission to ignore Line of Sight requirements 100% useless.

Probably not Intended, even if it was Written.

In that last pic, for the first scenario the black model would be wounded first, and once he is removed the wound pool empties as no more models are visible.

In the second scenario the other 4 models would all have to be assigned wounds before the black model gets any, as they are closer.

What is probably supposed to happen in both cases is that you would just allocate wounds to the closest model regardless of LOS... but that pesky LOS rule is the reason we can't have nice things.

I will have to take a look at that rule when I get home to the rulebook, there is no way that is intended if accurate and likely will never be played that way unless you get your over the top RAW douche into a game.

It likely doesnt specify that the models need to be visible from the model, or from the perspective of the player though does it.. Likely badly worded.

Runic, you need to understand also that the way the rules work. No weapon can shoot and wound a model that is OOS due to the wording in the OOS rule. This includes weapons that do not need LOS to fire. Smart Missiles, Impaler cannons, Barrage. etc..

Pure Raw covers alot, but also breaks

What Rules state to use the Line of Sight from the Player, as opposed to a Model or some Point on/over the battlefield?

 insaniak wrote:
In that last pic, for the first scenario the black model would be wounded first, and once he is removed the wound pool empties as no more models are visible.

But doesn't that contradict the part where the Wound Pool empties before Wounds are allocated, for said black model who would supposedly die first? As in, the black model cannot die until wounds are allocated ( anywhere, including to him? ) before which the Wound Pool is emptied/not emptied. Like this:

1. Roll To Wound for all 5 models.
2. See if models are in line of sight, if not the Wound Pool empties. If yes, it does not empty.
3. Allocate possible remaining Wounds from the Wound Pool.
4. Take possible saves
5. Remove possible casualties

Wouldn't the black model, as per your suggested outcome, skip the line and somehow get killed before the Wound Pool "checks for models in LOS?"

Fragile wrote:
Runic, you need to understand also that the way the rules work. No weapon can shoot and wound a model that is OOS due to the wording in the OOS rule. This includes weapons that do not need LOS to fire. Smart Missiles, Impaler cannons, Barrage. etc..

Pure Raw covers alot, but also breaks

I don't understand, I've known what you describe since my 3rd or so post in this thread. I know you're only trying to help though, so thanks.

I'll say again, please read the thread before responding as you are possibly a bit "late to the party."

 RunicFIN wrote:
But doesn't that contradict the part where the Wound Pool empties before Wounds are allocated, for said black model who would supposedly die first?

No. Wounds are allocated one at a time. If at any point there are no longer any models in LOS, the wound pool empties. It's not just something that happens at the start of the whole process.

So the black model receives the first wound and dies. At that point, there are now no models in LOS, and so the pool empties.

 RunicFIN wrote:
1. Roll To Wound for all 5 models.
2. See if models are in line of sight, if not the Wound Pool empties. If yes, it does not empty.
3. Allocate 1 wound from the Wound Pool.
4. Take possible saves
5. Remove possible casualties
6. Repeat from step 2.

I fixed your steps for you - you allocate one wound at a time, not all at once.

Thank you guys. All is now clear for me! Special thanks to insaniak, have a virtual beer ( or a cuppa o' tea if that ain't your poison. )

The rule in p.35 is not used for blasts, and any wound may be allocated to models OOS when using blast weapons.
The rule dictating this is written in p.158 for Blast.
"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

And to reply, shortly, to all diagrams, I'll quote the preceding sentence: "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll to Wound and save as normal."

Thus in all diagrams each model may take wounds, or even be killed due to being fired with Blast weapon. In the last diagram 2 models are killed, one wounded, as Meganobz have two wounds each.

Valshaen wrote:
The rule in p.35 is not used for blasts, and any wound may be allocated to models OOS when using blast weapons.
The rule dictating this is written in p.158 for Blast.
"Remember that any Wounds inflicted by weapons with the Blast special rule must be allocated to the closest model in the target unit even if it is out of sight of any models from the attacking unit."

And to reply, shortly, to all diagrams, I'll quote the preceding sentence: "Once the number of hits inflicted on the unit has been worked out, roll to Wound and save as normal."

Thus in all diagrams each model may take wounds, or even be killed due to being fired with Blast weapon. In the last diagram 2 models are killed, one wounded, as Meganobz have two wounds each.

To my knowledge, no one has said that Blast weapons can't allocate wounds to OOS models. This is written in the very rule you are quoting, on page 158. I don't know why you claim the rule on page 35 wouldn't apply to Blast weapons though, why?

However, the Wound pool empties before Wounds are allocated if there are no visible models in the target unit, as per page 35.

Answer me this:

Are Wounds allocated from the Wound pool? Does the Wound pool therefore fill and empty before allocation?

If you claim the Wound pool fills and empties after allocation for some reason, answer this: How do you allocate wounds that aren't yet in the Wound pool?