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Thinking of starting a MT regiment and wondering if there could be one dedicated to hunting space marines?

I understand the Crimson Fists are often chosen to exterminate space marines chapters that have been declared Excommunicate Traitoris but would the the Militarum Tempestus have a force dedicated to dealing with similar space marine problems and if they did is there any way they could be effective at this?

I like the idea of there being some elite normal humans who are experts in dealing with problem super soldiers. And their AP3 guns makes them sound like they're almost designed for it.

So my questions are...

1. is it a good idea?
2. is it credible in fluff?
3. is it credible in game?

Please just don't yell NO! at me, I know how much better space marines are the Scions but I was thinking they could be a fluffy specialist elite unit or something.

I look forward to reading your opinions

Thanks

Would definitely be viable, especially if you do them up as a regiment of Inquisitorial bad@$$es led by a Puritanical Inquisitor who's motives may be as ridiculous as simply seeing most/all Space Marines as deviant mutants, since Marines technically aren't even truly human anymore.

Inquisitor Mendoza led his own personal crusade against the newly formed Chapters in the aftermath of the Heresy for example, and was found (almost certainly) murdered for his actions. Likewise the Soul Drinkers Chapter was in part pushed to become renegades because of a psycho Inquisitor's personal ambitions.

If you kit them with volley guns and plasma guns, it could work.

Hot shot guns just don't cut it. In a straight up fire fight between 12" and 18" the odds are equal between the two units. Marines have range and rapid fire at 12", and they'll crush Scions in assault. The math changes if you get FRF orders off, but you still need to get within 18", could be a decent deep strike or air cavalry alpha strike to shift the balance, but it requires too much to go right for a mediocre payoff for my taste.

Volley guns are the key. Four shots at 24" with S4 Ap3 will grind up marines. I think the strategy would be to gunline large units advancing with tank support, and deep striking small volley gun teams on positions with cover. This'll deny enemy movement, or else you punish him with a combined 8 volley gun shots.

Taffy17 wrote:
Thinking of starting a MT regiment and wondering if there could be one dedicated to hunting space marines?

I understand the Crimson Fists are often chosen to exterminate space marines chapters that have been declared Excommunicate Traitoris but would the the Militarum Tempestus have a force dedicated to dealing with similar space marine problems and if they did is there any way they could be effective at this?

I like the idea of there being some elite normal humans who are experts in dealing with problem super soldiers. And their AP3 guns makes them sound like they're almost designed for it.

So my questions are...

1. is it a good idea?
2. is it credible in fluff?
3. is it credible in game?

Please just don't yell NO! at me, I know how much better space marines are the Scions but I was thinking they could be a fluffy specialist elite unit or something.

I look forward to reading your opinions

Thanks

Fluffwise, it's fine. Stormtroopers/Scions are exactly what the Imperium would use to combat Space Marines in most situations, particularly as other Space Marines are usually nonexistent.

In terms of on-table game mechanics, that AP3 is *WAY* overvalued. Just as in the previous codex iteration, people see the AP3 and think "wow that's neat" but the problem is that these guys aren't meaningfully harder to kill or break than 5pt guardsmen (they get a 4+sv instead of a 5+, but they're still *very* easy to kill), their guns are still S3, and they have an even shorter effective range (9" for optimal double-tap, 18" max). Running a somewhat similar IA12 Assault Brigade with "Grenadier" troops (same thing as Scions but with DKoK rules and no DS but are Troops) for a year and a half now, I can count on one hand the number of times I found the AP3 to be truly useful, with fingers to spare.

The problem with the MT book is not just with the infantry, but they also have very limited vehicle access, one of which is absurdly expensive for what it offers and is very easy to kill, and the other lacks any real AT capability, and this means the infantry have to pull double-duty as AT as well. Ultimately the army has lots of mobility but lacks any sort of staying power and often comes up short on firepower.

I am not sure on the fluff. Space Marine traitors are rare, but honestly, marines as a whole are super-rare. If they must be dealt with, use overwhelming numbers of SoB, or send in Minotaurs. Fighting SM is, despite what the stats imply, not something MT are efficient at. They are special forces, but they are going up against superhuman special forces/shock troops hybrids. They even lack the IG advantage of numbers: how many orphans of martyred Imperial officers manage to meet MT standards?

I think it's an awesome idea!!

I run my Black Templar as a force that is dedicated to killing those who they deem to be traitors. Not necessarily those sentenced by the Lords of Terra, just those they deem by their own standards. And in fact I was coming up with a custom chapter called the Confessors that do just this.

That being said, the idea of elite humans taking care of space marines sounds really cool. It reminds me of the Edo era police that were trained in ways of handling errant Samurai. They were given specific martial arts to disarm a wild samurai and apprehend him. Although you are going more for killing than arresting, I think the idea is about the same.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure on the fluff. Space Marine traitors are rare, but honestly, marines as a whole are super-rare. If they must be dealt with, use overwhelming numbers of SoB, or send in Minotaurs. Fighting SM is, despite what the stats imply, not something MT are efficient at. They are special forces, but they are going up against superhuman special forces/shock troops hybrids. They even lack the IG advantage of numbers: how many orphans of martyred Imperial officers manage to meet MT standards?

Relative to Space Marines there are still many hundreds of thousands if not millions per each Space Marine, and given that half the original SM's, and at least 50 full chapters since the heresy, along with countless numbers of individual companies/squads/marines have gone traitor since then, the need could be remarkably high. The Minotaurs are but one chapter with practically no communication with anything else in the Imperium and many/most don't even know they exist and can't be everywhere at once, and the Sisters of Battle actually aren't particularly numerous either.

wow, these are some great responses!

I was expecting people yelling "NO!" at me and telling me that "not even 10 Scions could take on a Marine" or something.

I figure Space Marines are honourable and Scions aren't gonna fight fair. They'll know and use every dirty trick in the "how to beat Space Marines" book to beat them.

Taffy17 wrote:
wow, these are some great responses!

I was expecting people yelling "NO!" at me and telling me that "not even 10 Scions could take on a Marine" or something.

I figure Space Marines are honourable and Scions aren't gonna fight fair. They'll know and use every dirty trick in the "how to beat Space Marines" book to beat them.

Fight them on muddy terrain. Wait for their super heavy power armor to sink in the mud, then walk up and shoot them in the neck.

I like that idea a lot actually. Scions seem like the perfect marine killers - their weaponry is well-suited for the job, they will most likely outnumber the adeptus astartes in a fight and since they are recruited from the schola progenium they believe (or rather know) themselves to be the ultimate servants of the god-emperor of mankind.

And exactly as you say, scions wouldn't play fair. They're military, they'll take any advantage they can get if it means they'll win the fight. Camouflage, ambush tactics, backstabbing... Anything to get the job done!

... if the Imperium needs to wipe out a Chapter of Space Marines, they either send another Chapter of Space Marines (like the Minotaurs or the Space Sharks) or they send the Sisters of Battle.

Any sort of IG unit, including the Storm Trooper Regiment, is a distant third-place option.

Again however, the Minotaurs are largely incommunicado and are a single chapter, and many/most don't even know they exist, and often they may be fighting something else. The Sisters of Battle are very limited in number and have their own obligations to the Eccelesiarchy. Stormtroopers by comparison go through highly intensive and lethal training and have weapons that will penetrate Space Marine armor, they just don't wear Power Armor themselves.

99% of the time, there won't be any other SM chapters or Sisters of battle around.

The Sisters of Battle are actually the Imperium's go-to option for dealing with rogue SM Chapters.

There's fewer Storm Troopers than there are Sisters, and fewer Sisters than there are Space Marines.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Sisters of Battle are actually the Imperium's go-to option for dealing with rogue SM Chapters.

They've been described as such, but are limited in number and not everywhere. They're an ideal option, but just as most of the Imperium's wars are fought without Space Marines or Sororitas simply because they aren't available.

There's fewer Storm Troopers than there are Sisters, and fewer Sisters than there are Space Marines.

That fluff hasn't held true in quite some time, especially with the release of the Tempestus book, Stormtroopers haven't been a single regiment for quite some time, and there's countless equivalent troops fielded by many worlds (e.g. Cadian Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers, etc)

The Storm Troopers are *also* limited in number and not everywhere.

That fluff hasn't held true in quite some time, especially with the release of the Tempestus book, Stormtroopers haven't been a single regiment for quite some time, and there's countless equivalent troops fielded by many worlds (e.g. Cadian Kasrkin, Krieg Grenadiers, etc)

According to C:MT, there's still a single regiment of Storm Troopers.

The Kasrkin are not grouped into Regiments, they're simply a Company within a combined-arms Cadian Regiment, while the Grenadiers of Kreig are a squad attached to another Kreig Regiment, rather than being a stand-alone organization.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically what I'm saying is, *could* an MT build be kitted for SM-killing? Yes, yes they could.

Is there a fluff justification for their application in this manner? Not really, no. The Imperium has other organizations specifically for this role.

Now, if you wanted to fluffify this list and have SM-hunting MT, then add an Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus and his/her retinue, and field lots of Scions. Now you have Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, and now you have your specialist SM-hunting squads. Ally in some SOB, and you'll really be in business.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Storm Troopers are *also* limited in number and not everywhere.


According to C:MT, there's still a single regiment of Storm Troopers.

I don't have it on me right at this moment (at work), but this is the same book that gives like a dozen unique regimental paint schemes and operational histories correct? It's very clear they're much larger than the few-thousand strong force originally mentioned in 2E (back when big wars in 40k still were WW2 sized battles) and have been featured engaging in very large engagements, and as such, even if it does still include it (which I thought it didn't, I could be wrong however I guess) I don't think "Stormtrooper Regiment" could be compared directly with the way it's used for normal IG regiments the way it was in 2E, much like the US Marine Corps is much larger than what would be referred to as a "Corps" in a traditional sense.

The Kasrkin are not grouped into Regiments, they're simply a Company within a combined-arms Cadian Regiment, while the Grenadiers of Kreig are a squad attached to another Kreig Regiment, rather than being a stand-alone organization.

You're not playing a force on a tabletop larger than a company or so, and Kasrkin and Grenadiers often operate in company or larger sized formations independently (i.e. as in IA 12's Assault Brigade list where you can run an entire company of Grenadiers)

Then ally in some Space Wolf drop pods and you'll be on the way to an Ordo Hereticus Strike Force!

Where are we getting that SoB hunt down rouge SMs? Can you point me to some page numbers in some fluff?

Can't see why tempestus would be good marine hunters in the fluff. Covert and deadly missions are their niche' and they have the gear to do so.

 buddha wrote:
Where are we getting that SoB hunt down rouge SMs? Can you point me to some page numbers in some fluff?

Can't see why tempestus would be good marine hunters in the fluff. Covert and deadly missions are their niche' and they have the gear to do so.

Codex: Witch-Hunters (3E), where it describes how this is done (Inquisitor + Retinue + A bunch of Sisters in a Dominica-pattern Drop Pod smash into the Chapter HQ and decapitate the Chapter by killing its leadership).

Citadel Journal #49 gave the army list designed for it. Codex: Witch Hunters mentioned it briefly in passing on page 11 ("... performing purity sweeps through Imperial organisations, ersecuting apostate clerics, challenging renegade space marine chapters...").

Need more?

(Sorry, Psi, but the Witch Hunter book doesn't mention the Dominicas, they weren't talked about until Journal #49).

*eye-squint*

Hmm.. might be right. I'm working off memory here, and that isn't what it used to be.

I wasn't sure about the Witch Hunter reference, so I grabbed my copy, ehe.

Though I did find this:

"The personnel and fleets of each fortress are commanded by a Prioress under the direct supervision of the Abbess on Earth. The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. The slightest deviation from approved stricture results in the severest chastisement. Unquestioned loyalty to the Imperial Cult is vital, because the Sisters are expected to maintain a close eye upon all servants of the Imperium. Every single day, squads of Battle Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrongdoers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle Sisters travel out to warzones, to the fortress-monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is free from their vigilance."
- Rogue Trader core rulebook (1987), p. 268

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and finally found this secreted away in some random folder on my PC.

You are correct, it was CJ#49

"Facing an entire Chapter of Space Marines is not a conflict many Imperial leaders would embark upon with any confidence, but where there is no alternative the Ordo may order a mission sent against the command structures of the renegade Chapter in order to disable the entire organisation from the top down. The only force outside of the Adeptus Astartes themselves with any hope of successfully assaulting a renegade Chapter Master and his attendant brethren may be an elite Strike Force of the Adepta Sororitas, led by an experienced and battle-hardened Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. These Strike Forces are composed of the very best the Adepta Sororitas can field, and are equipped to an even higher standard than is usual within the Orders Militant. Led by a senior member of the Ordo Hereticus, the force can call upon the aid of the Imperial Navy, from whose troop transports they can deploy using the small numbers of drop pods each of the Orders Militant maintains exclusively for these operations."

Citadel Journal #49

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, again, to the OP's intent, I'm not saying "don't do it". It's your money, your models, do whatever you want with it. All I'm doing is pointing out what is the prevalent fluff on how to deal with rogue Space Marines.

With MT, you've got kind of a glass cannon. With the hellguns and the other kit the MT have, you will probably be better off allying in some tougher vehicles, some variable fire-power, some alternate deployment options, and the like to have a full, all-around option for dealing with MEQ.

From a fluff perspective, the MT (and the aforementioned units like it) are generally used to do things that regular IG just can't do on their own, but in support of what the IG *does* do. So, for example, the IG run up against some sort of heavy fortification that their artillery can't crack, and there's no SM around for dealing with it. The MT are the spear-tip that finds a crack in the enemy's armor, exploits it, breaches the defenses, and establishes a beachhead that allow the rest of the IG behind them to widen the gap, bring in superior weight-of-numbers, armor, and all the rest of the IG's toys to then obliterate the enemy.

So if I was to do this I'm thinking I'd need something like...

MT: Command squad, 3 scion squads and 2 Valkyries

Inquisition allies: Ordo Hereticus inquisitor and warband

Officio assassinorum allies: vindicare assassin

How's that for a starting point?

On the table, IG stormtroopers with plasma guns have definitely gave my CSM a bloody lip before. I've never seen this supplement but I love this idea and hope it gets to fruition. Also, due to the way force orgs work now, you can do this and probably even talk people into letting you run it in tournies

There is an IG regiment dedicated to hunting down and capturing Eldar specimens for study.

Just say that your force is an IG force dedicated to hunting down and killing rogue Marines and their allies. And use the MT rules to represent them doing it.

Works fine in my opinion.

 buddha wrote:
Where are we getting that SoB hunt down rouge SMs? Can you point me to some page numbers in some fluff?

It's been around since the Rogue Trader days. I'm pretty sure the first edition rule book had a two page spread of a Sister gunning down a Marine, with some text explaining how the Sisters of Battle were fanatically loyal and would purge heretics.

 TheSilo wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
wow, these are some great responses!

I was expecting people yelling "NO!" at me and telling me that "not even 10 Scions could take on a Marine" or something.

I figure Space Marines are honourable and Scions aren't gonna fight fair. They'll know and use every dirty trick in the "how to beat Space Marines" book to beat them.

Fight them on muddy terrain. Wait for their super heavy power armor to sink in the mud, then walk up and shoot them in the neck.

Haha.