Help with Unorthodox Guard

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**Sledgehammer**

Im having problems with my guard due to my self imposed restrictions. I have not won a game yet, and i think i need some help.

The boundaries that i have set limit me to all of the aircraft, Sentinels, Veterans, CCS, HWT, Psykers, Commisars, Stormtroopers, Ratlings, and Rough Riders.
All of my veterans must have at least camo cloaks because of the way that they are modeled and because i like them.

In the past i have used carapace armor and camo cloaks on all of my veterans but from my experience carapace is not worth the points at all.

I have used psykers in one game thus far but it was against an all deep strike all terminator grey knights and i was tabled turn 2 so they did little. I was thinking that i should always use an astropath for his possible defensive powers. For primaris psykers i will use biomancy for the 4+ fnp, and pyromancy for the 4 up cover. These defensive powers can stack with camo cloaks and give me 3+ cover, i could then go to ground for 2+ and then order them to renter the fight via orders.

Vendettas and Valkyries provide transport and anti air/ armor / anti infantry roles.

Thus far i have always used 3 heavy lascannon sentinels with hunter killer missiles that sit in the back and attack armor. Should i make them scouts so i can instead get side and rear armor?

I have also used lascannons on my hwt, but their firepower is lack luster due to their ballistic skill and they always die too quickly to support their point cost.

Storm troopers always mishap or deep strike way off course. Even when they do get close enough to the enemy they still fail. I had a storm trooper squad of 10 deep strike right next to a 5 man devistator squad. I put 15 hotshot lasgun shots into them, and then 4 hot shot volly shots and only 2 of them died.

I have yet to use rough riders and i know they suck, but i was thinking of arming 2 of them with meltaguns and giving the sergeant a melta bomb so that they can tank hunt.

anyway i need ideas and criticism.

**the_scotsman**

Wellllll that's a hefty load of restrictions ain't it.

Hmm.

Here's what I'm envisioning: a covert seize-and-hold strike force which specializes in dropping in and fortifying a position before the enemy realizes that they're even there. Then the enemy runs into the anvil of their defense setup before eating the hammer of their flanking units.

You take a couple Camo-cloak veteran squads with 1 plasma gun and an auto cannon. These deploy in cover with the ccs hanging behind one piece of cover, out of LOS. Maybe a mimum squad of ratlings for good measure but you're going to want to be bunkered down hard. The idea here being that you primarily focus any light, fast transports with the auto cannons and plasma, using the Bring it Down order to pop the transports or the order that grants Pinning to try and stop exposed troops.

Now, while I respect your restrictions and see that you seem to be going for a lightly equipped commando detachment, I think hellhound thrown in here would be both fluffy and effective. Quickly assaulting melee troops are going to be your nightmare with this army and deploying that mean flamer machine is going to make a big difference. Other than that Heavy Flamer Sentinels *might* fill the same role even better against more lightly armed troops like orks and DE. But vs shooting and heavy vehicle weaponry, you're relying on your solid cover to weather the storm until turn 2. If you could see clear to include Priests for the fearless aspect (maybe call them something else fluff wise or consider those veterans to be fanatics) then you could not worry about morale. The only important thing you want is a ccs that has the Astropath ( or the other one, you want the one that buffs your reserves not impeded the enemy's).

Now for the other aspect of your army: the hammer. An aerial attack wing of vendetta gunships and deep striking Tempestus arrives to catch the enemy in their trap. Plasma guns are the way to make Tempestus pack more of a punch, and remember to ALWAYS strike them into difficult terrain if you can as you succeed automatically and then get cover saves. The vendettas swoop in to strike tanks' side armor or enemy fliers, and the Tempestus clean up shop when it comes to heavy armor thanks to those AP2 plasma guns.

I'd say:

3 veteran squads equipped as described
CCS
3 HF sentinels concealed early vs anti tank fire and deployed judiciously to save your infantry's necks and sweep hordes
2 squads of plastempestus
2 Vendettas
1 squad minimum size Ratlings
3 minist priests

Would be a usable army. I don't like guard psykers. Might be lacking vs hordes but heavy flamers and first rank second rank are beautiful.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Las cannon HWTs are less useful because the major tank hunting order Bring It Down is a reroll on to wound. 1 high strength shot vs 2 lower strength shots and that reroll is handier. Plus, the fact is auto cannons just hit more consistently and can be paired with a regular weapon the squad can take (plasma gun) which can be used to attack the same targets. Also auto cannon isn't as wasted vs infantry that you'll be shooting with your lasguns.

Sentinels don't want las cannons. Look at everything a unit brings to the table. The Sentinel is also a strength 6 walker! If melee for him isn't even an option then you're better off buying something else. The vendetta on the other hand is a lean mean las cannon delivery system. It hits side armor, it's a mother to kill, and it doubles as the best anti air in the game. Win win. For sentinels you want them up close and personal with either flamers or-can they take melta of any kind? Also HK missiles are a bit bad this edition where you just want either massive over kill (melta guns) or lots of hull points.

**Sledgehammer**

ANY tracked or wheeled vehicles at all are disallowed in my list for fluffy reasons, but priests are ok.

if you care about the fluff

Spoiler:

Arkan is a temperate world covered in forests. The planet is 25% larger than Terra and revolves around a bright blue star, named Arka. Arkan means of Arka.
The world’s forests consist of taiga, redwood, deciduous, jungle, and pine. No matter where you are on Arkan you are either surrounded by forest, above it, or on the oceans. There are no deserts, or plains, there is only forest. The lack of any kind of environment that does not include forests is due to the rapid rate at which vegetation grows. Once a tree is cut down it only takes a year for a new tree to grow and become just as big as the one that was cut down. No one knows why vegetation grows so quickly, but the ecclesiarchy officially states that it is a gift of the emperor even if reports dating back before contact with the great crusade mention the growth phenomena.

Forests and plants grow so quickly that any indent on the landscape is restored in a short time. This makes permeant settlements, and clearing land for agriculture hard. Force fields seem to have an effect on the rapid growth of vegetation so all major settlements employ their use. Agriculture gets around this problem by consolidating land, labor, and capital into plantations that have force fields on their outskirts that prevent the forest from encroaching on agricultural land, whilst still allowing for the rapid growth of produce. The most common way for agriculture to be done is a nomadic system. Forest fires rage all the time on Arkan and some have found a way to employ them to their benefit. Land that has been cleared by forest fires in quickly turned into temporary agricultural ground where it is utilized until the forest begins to encroach again.

Forest fires are very dangerous and constantly threaten the people of Arken. Walls are erected, and trees are constantly cleared from around settlements to combat the threat. An entire section of the planetary defense force is dedicated to fighting these fires. The men and women that make up this task force are the initiates of the local defense force.
Under the constant threat of fire, and hindered by thousands of miles of forest, traditional vehicles are essentially impossible to utilize for transportation between settlements. In their stead aircraft perform the same role. Without an abundance of aircraft transportation of goods and personnel would be dangerous and hindersome. Due to their importance many people and families have aircraft. These can be small gyro copters, balloons, prop planes, helicopters, jets, VTOL capable aircraft, and amphibious landers. Storage of the majority of the aircraft is in underground hangers that can house an entire settlements supply of aircraft. Airports are the center of commerce and trade on Arkan. Every town has an airport for without one it could not send or receive anything. The abundance of aircraft on Arkan and its imperative use by its citizens makes them a very good pilots and airmen.

Arkan society is pseudo class based. Mutants generally work in the nomadic agricultural and logging trains where they. Humans of low class either work in the plantations as sweat shop “employees” or as valued workers, or clear the land around settlements for protection from fire. Low class citizens also work as mechanics on the vast array of aircraft. Arkan’s middle class is comprised of cargo pilots, low ranking members of Arkans planetary government, accountants, lawyers, teachers etc. High ranking members of Arkan society are high ranking members of the Planetary Government, members of nepotistic business families, and the descendants of famous persons. Above all of them is the Planetary Governor. The Planetary Governor is elected by the people in a first past the post system. Every citizen of Arkan votes for the Governor each has a single vote. The only people that cannot vote are mutants, and criminals. Once a Planetary Governor has been elected he serves until his death at which point a new Governor is voted upon.
The Governor heads the entire planet and is responsible for its defense, imperial tithes, and the wellbeing of the people. The people vote for the candidate that they feel benefits them the most, thus most planetary governors fulfill that purpose well in relation to other imperial worlds. Not all provide for their people though, as that ruse was only needed to get elected, and thus protected by edict of the imperium. Imperial tithes are required of Arkan like almost every other imperial world. It supplies a vast amount of lumber, and produce, so vast that Arkan is not required to give units to the imperial guard or navy.

The Planetary defense force defends the planet from possible invasions, heretics, and lawbreakers. The unique property of Arkan draws a certain kind of criminal. Drug farmers come to Arkan from all over to plant illicit vegetation in the shield of the woods. The planetary defense force employs task forces to find destroy, and execute these criminals and their drugs. It does this by deploying scouting and recon forces on the ground which are equipped with horses that can traverse the terrain for months at a time without needing to refuel. Behind them are light infantry detachments made up of heavy weapons teams, equipped with mortars, rocket launchers, lascannons, and heavy bolters, general infantrymen, and sentinels ,which can traverse the forests due to their bipedal nature. The task force is then supported by air cavalry that drops troops via grav chute, or fast rope into combat; and provides air support. The aerial element also intercepts and destroys criminal aircraft. If the situation warrants it can execute aerial boarding protocols with vtol aircraft, or even moving planes.
The lack of imperial guard and navy recruitment has left the PDF with many veterans. In response to this the First Arkan Volunteer Group was formed by a veteran of the pdf that wished to fight on other worlds for the imperium. Ever since then volunteer groups have formed on Arkan that seek to serve the Imperium. The members of the 1ST AVG are the most veteran members of the PDF. They are given leave from the PDF to join the 1st AVG by the Planetary Governor. Each member of the 1st AVG must be given leave by the Governor and then accepted by its commander.

The 1st AVG itself is not under the command of anyone but its leader. It exists outside the authority of the Governor, as he only gives leave to its members and supplies them with some of their equipment. The organization itself is pretty much free to do as it wishes and take on tasks that please it. The freedom that this unit is able to operate with is both a boon and a burden. While the governor gives his blessing and supplies them with some equipment they still possess fewer resources than other regiments. To get around this they take on jobs that pay well, and resupply them. Surprisingly they are well equipped even with these logistical nightmares. They contain a vast array of aircraft, sentinels, camo cloaks, carapace armor, and hotshot lasguns but no tanks or any tracked or wheeled vehicles. Some suspect that they are regularly hired by inquisitors to perform jobs such as support a revolution on a world against a corrupt Planetary Governor as a way to keep inquisitorial involvement shrouded.

The pilots and men of the 1st AVG are all veterans that fight in the forests and the skies for an imperium that didn’t ask them to join.

right now i generally run 3 lascannon sentinels, 3 hwt lascannons, and 2 vendettas and I put together a Valkyrie yesterday. Should i use auto cannons on the heavy weapon teams, ccs, or my sentinels? I always use moo, and oof, and will probably use the astropath too just because its a cheap as balls psyker.

now for the veterans. do i really want an auto cannon in my veterans? why not use 3 plasma instead? they are more mobile, can put out more damage within 12 inches and are ap2 so they can pop terminators and transports. I always give them plasma or grenade launchers depending on who i think i will play. I always use harker, is he even worth the points? originally i wanted outflank, but i need to roll well for that, so should i buy creed to get a high possibility of doing so?

i feel like rough riders could provide mobile anti tank and charge deterrence all in one. A group of 5 with 2 meltas and a melta bomb could conceivably reck vehicles if they get in close combat due to 4 strength 5 hits, 2 melta his and 1 bomb. its just they are so weak that they will die turn one most likely.

**Desubot**

How are you getting HWT without platoons?

**Sledgehammer**

Desubot wrote:
How are you getting HWT without platoons?

I ask my opponents before hand if they will allow it.

**the_scotsman**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Desubot wrote:
How are you getting HWT without platoons?
I ask my opponents before hand if they will allow it.

Oh, I assumed you were taking the 1 HWT with the vets. You can do that right?

If you like Camo cloaks, that means your veterans are going to be hugging cover and largely, immobile. Plasma puts out one shot at 24". An auto puts out 2 at more inches than you can shake a stick at.

So IMO (play with proxies to see if you like it first) you can do it like this.

Veteran squad setup:

Anvil Vets: Camo Cloaks, auto cannons, optional 1x plasma if you see a lot of deep striking heavy armor in your meta. Stick in a priest for fearless and you've got cut price space marines with optional 2+. Your army is gonna lose to tau or SM whirlwinds every time unfortunately but that's how it goes sometimes. If you take three squads ditch the HWT-they die too fast, only get 3 BS and are illegal anyway.

Hammer Vets (for the Valkyrie): squad of veterans, as many melta guns as you can include in the squad. The Valkyrie comes in, plop these down behind the biggest scariest enemy vehicle-no scatter roll, this is your ace in the hole "that needs to die". I wouldn't advise anything else in this squad as it'll just be points down the drain-if Tempestus are somehow cheaper use those but I don't think they are.

Your sentinels try as heavy flamers. The idea is, stick them just around the corner from your vets and anything scary comes out to ruin the day like orks or dark Eldar the sentinels stomp in, wipe out a swathe of them and charge if the rest are still standing. They're durable little suckers against people with limited melee anti tank.

So you've got counter assault, anti infantry (lasguns), anti armor (vendettas and suicide squad), and anti armored infantry (plasmatempestus).

The rough riders have an issue in that they're only very very narrowly useful. They hard counter non-melee focused heavy armored troops. In theory they cover a significant weakness your army has to drop podding marines but in practice they'll fall flat against anything else. Anything they can't wipe the floor with turn one tends to waste them.

**Sledgehammer**

heavy flamer sentinels seem somewhat wasteful imo. if i should have no qualms of getting in close combat with them, then why should i put the flamer on them in the first place?. simply get a sentinel in close combat and with armor 12 only strength 6+ can hurt him. Once i charge them, or they charge me both are essentially gone from the battle as they get locked in cc. It seems like an auto cannon, or lascannon would be more useful as i can utilize the range whilst staying in the back.

**the_scotsman**

Moo is too random. I don't like having my ccs in any place my opponent can get to it. I run it bare, with an Astropath with buffing powers if I have lots of reserves ( prescience + First Rank Second Rank or bring it down is money).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sledgehammer wrote:
heavy flamer sentinels seem somewhat wasteful imo. if i should have no qualms of getting in close combat with them, then why should i put the flamer on them in the first place?. simply get a sentinel in close combat and with armor 12 only strength 6+ can hurt him. Once i charge them, or they charge me both are essentially gone from the battle as they get locked in cc. It seems like an auto cannon, or lascannon would be more useful as i can utilize the range whilst staying in the back.

1) many infantry have a single power fist dude (see an ork boyz mob) or haywire or melta bombs. Sentinels are not melee sweepers, they've only got two hull points.

2) your army as it stands lacks masses of fire. Besides First Rank Second Rank you have no way to deal with 30 ork boyz or a tyranid swarm. Trust me, between two vendettas and a valk of melta vets coming in turn 2, you have nothing to fear from heavy tanks. You should be most scared of Transports carrying troop units and big beefy melee blobs as well as deep strikers. If the enemy's not coming to you, and they aren't tau, nobody's gonna beat your army in a shoot out because your 3+/2+ cover saves are gonna be baller, and then your turn 2 alpha strike is going to wipe any tanks or planes you want. Heavy flamers fit the bill for what you need exactly. You don't need 3 BS3 lascannons that badly that you'd give up the possibility for 20 free wounds on a deep striking 10 man squad.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you should have qualms in close combat with sentinels. They're not that great, but in certain situations where the enemy CANT retaliate or it's a choice between a melee involving them or your vets, they come in handy. If you never used them in melee you're wasting that capability. Just like putting melta guns on rough riders wastes their capability to charge with AP3 because you want them going against different targets, does that make sense?