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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






(Note: this is an article aimed at people who are interested in improving their overall game it will be a bit basic to those pros who've already looked up the best army on the internet and are already pros. Generally, if you're wondering why you always lose and your buddy always wins, check to make sure you're not making this common mistake in your list building and odds are you'll do better!)

Every weapon and unit in 40k has a cost and a peak effectiveness where it is the most efficient. Using a weapon effectively is usually quite basic-you wouldn't fire Krak missiles from your Devastators at a squad of ork boyz when you could shoot a vehicle instead, that's obvious.

But one of the most common sins of 40k list building especially in beginners is spending points on weapons they will never use efficiently.

Examples: special melee weapons in squads you will never willingly charge with. Close range weapons on squads who will hang back and hold objectives. Heavy ranged weapons on squads you need to seize ground.

Think "if I equip this special weapon on a squad, how often will I be able to use it? And if I do use it, will the rest of my squad still be useful?"

A prime example is a space marine tactical squad with a choice between a plasma gun and a melta gun.

The plasma gun has 24" range vs 12" on the melta. It is therefore more likely that you will be able to use the plasma when you use your bolters.

The peak effectiveness of the plasma is something like armor 2+ terminators, while the peak effectiveness of the melta is a vehicle (though it can also shoot termies, it gets 50% of the shots the plasma does at 12"). Bolters can hurt terminators, but are useless against most vehicles.

Therefore, you will see a lot more plasma guns in tactical squads than melta guns, flamers, or what have you. That one is fairly obvious, but you can greatly increase the usefulness of many of your units by getting rid of these kinds of extra junk point sinks.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Angered Reaver Arena Champion




Connah's Quay, North Wales

Nice article, this is over 50% of the advise i give out to new players which basically amounts to taking specialized units. But i'd like to pose some further questions about the following situations.

The Dark Eldar Blaster in a 5 Man Venom Squad: Is it worth it? Adding a Blaster increases the point cost of the kabalites by 33%, but it gives them a powerful TEQ/MC/AV killing weapon. But in addition while the Blaster is 18'' and the Rifles are 24'', the Venom with the Splinter Cannon is 36''. So, in your opinion, Blasters: Yay or Nay?

Specialization or Variety in combat? Say i have an Archon in a unit of Incubi, the Incubi themselves are very good at killing terminators and low model count MEQ, but fall short against larger squads due to having less attacks. In this situation, would you kit the Archon out with a Huskblade and go TEQ hunting (something the Incubi can already do), MC hunting (Something Incubi are bad at) with a Venom Blade or run a Djin Blade to help killing off MEQ?

Finally, would you give a Ork Nob a Power Klaw? Ork Boys do not want to be charging the same kind of things that the Power Klaw wants to (Things with an AV, Monstrous Creatures) while the Power Klaw doesn't want to charge the things the Boys do (Wasting the Klaw on chaff, or being challenged out and killed by small elite units).

Just somethings i want your opinion on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/03 20:25:59


 
   
Made in no
Hellacious Havoc





Good advice

Whats your points of view on making one squad much better than all your other units?

Also if you want to have some assaults, do you really need to make your whole army into cc oriented?
   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Neat article OP, simple concepts that can make a world of difference.

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:Nice article, this is over 50% of the advise i give out to new players which basically amounts to taking specialized units. But i'd like to pose some further questions about the following situations.

The Dark Eldar Blaster in a 5 Man Venom Squad: Is it worth it? Adding a Blaster increases the point cost of the kabalites by 33%, but it gives them a powerful TEQ/MC/AV killing weapon. But in addition while the Blaster is 18'' and the Rifles are 24'', the Venom with the Splinter Cannon is 36''. So, in your opinion, Blasters: Yay or Nay?

Specialization or Variety in combat? Say i have an Archon in a unit of Incubi, the Incubi themselves are very good at killing terminators and low model count MEQ, but fall short against larger squads due to having less attacks. In this situation, would you kit the Archon out with a Huskblade and go TEQ hunting (something the Incubi can already do), MC hunting (Something Incubi are bad at) with a Venom Blade or run a Djin Blade to help killing off MEQ?

Finally, would you give a Ork Nob a Power Klaw? Ork Boys do not want to be charging the same kind of things that the Power Klaw wants to (Things with an AV, Monstrous Creatures) while the Power Klaw doesn't want to charge the things the Boys do (Wasting the Klaw on chaff, or being challenged out and killed by small elite units).

Just somethings i want your opinion on.


Venom: I'd probably take whatever anti-infantry heavy the DE have, presumably another Splinter Cannon. This means you can use the mobility to hang at maximum range and still out out decent firepower, or sweep in for the kill and add the rifle shots to the fusillade. In general, I put AT weapons in AT transporters, and the same for anti infantry.

Archon: I'd bring something that hits with as many attacks as possible at initiative, preferably AP3. The Incubi deal with TEQ, and poison everywhere will handle MCs better than most, so your best bet is to add more wound potential and take out stuff before it can hit back.

Nob: I'd take one on large squads. Orks need all the AT they can get, have enough attacks to mitigate multi-charging a unit and vehicle if necessary. At worst it's a few more reliable wounds, at best you're tearing up Land Raiders.

Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:Good advice

Whats your points of view on making one squad much better than all your other units?

Also if you want to have some assaults, do you really need to make your whole army into cc oriented?


One uber-squad: I wouldn't. It makes it to much of a target and unless that one unit is supremely durable, it's better to have more capable units than one deathstar and some chaff. The exceptions are the likes of Screamerstars/Jet Councils, which have the speed and toughness to take on full armies.

CC: not necessarily, but having redundancy is key to an assault plan. It's worth noting that units that excel at close quarters shooting are just as useful here, the idea being that the enemy can't kill every threat if you bring enough, and that losing any one unit shouldn't cause your plan to fall apart. As a rule of thumb, I'd suggest three units at minimum for a plan like this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/03 21:25:03


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Hawehu@hotmail.com wrote:
Good advice

Whats your points of view on making one squad much better than all your other units?

Also if you want to have some assaults, do you really need to make your whole army into cc oriented?


"Death Star" squad: it can be a thing but it needs to be LUDICROUSLY durable. T5 minimum to avoid str8 gibbing and a good invul or constant cover save is needed. Any squad that can be taken out by one good AP2-1 large blast is dumb.

Nope! Particularly if you want to protect your shooters. Personally for my shooty armies I like having at least one cheap counter-charge unit, often something that can charge but doesn't need to (IE a SM dreadnought). Or you can go with something like a shooty ork list which has "optional charge"-nearly every ork unit is pretty decent on the charge so even shoota boyz and tankbustas can deal unexpected hurt!

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in no
Hellacious Havoc





Ok thanks guys, i have a helbrute if i want to protect my shooters then.

Could it be viable to have a raptorsquad just to get into melee early, and have a second wave of something better to clean it up?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

I agree in concept, however in many situations the things like the melta will be superior even at the expense of being able to fire the bolters, it matters more about the delivery system. For example I would put a melta and combi melta in a pod but not in a rhino.

Another thing that I see people making mistakes on is buying the upgrades for every model.

I usually assume 50% casualties or so at least, so with proper positioning there is no reason to buy them anything most of the time. Same with characters, over investing in upgrades that you wont use often enough to be worth the points.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

My Deathwatch army project thread  
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

While I agree with the general premise of the OP, there's a pretty major flaw in the final point regarding tactical squads.

Therefore, you will see a lot more plasma guns in tactical squads than melta guns, flamers, or what have you.


Most competitive marine players will eschew plasma guns for melta on their tactical squads. Reasons being:

a) The basic marine is better at killing most vehicles then they are at killing terminators. A tactical squad basic guy is not only armed with a bolter but also totes a krak grenade. So one extra S6 shot at 8" and however many follow up attacks at S6 on the assault are a nice compliment to a melta.

b) The sarge can take a melta bomb. Again a cheap and effective addition that compliments both the melta but also the krak grenades as well. This is also a meta consideration (see below) because MCs and vehicles are plentiful in 7ed.

c) Some units in the game are by design not specialists. Tac squads are one such unit. This doesn't mean you load them out overly to be good at everything, but it does mean you can embrace their generalist, master of none characteristics. especially in terms of the meta and needs of the list (see below)

d) There is also meta considerations and list build options to take into account. Terminators are not very common in the meta. Vehicles are quite common. Also if terminators were an issue, space marines have better ways to deal with them then a tac squad with plasma guns

e) Plasma guns are arguably over priced compared to a melta. Between overheat and effectiveness vs cost and meta, there's not so much reason to take a plasma over melta unless you are already stacked for anti-tank or play in an unusual meta.

f) A tactical is often in a rhino, so is not firing much more then the special and heavy often enough. So what the rest of the chumps are armed with is irrelevant much of the game. Fairly build specific but worth noting.

g) Being able to assault the unit inside after popping their transport is also a consideration.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/03 22:41:08


snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."

Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away." 
   
Made in ca
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Toronto, Ontario

I'd add some thoughts to the whole splitting effectiveness.

Many times, depending on a unit's role in your army it is better to buy a weapon you'll never use, or only use once if the situation calls for it to add flexibility to a unit's role.

For example, I like to use Chaos Space Marine havoks as "tactical squads". I give them 2 heavy weapons like lascannons and 2 plasma guns and extra close combat weapons and a combi flamer on the champion because their role is to hold the center, regardless of who they'll be facing. While their weapons all have different ranges and ap values, the role I have assigned for them requires them to pose a credible threat to anything on every turn and be able to deal with whatever is trying to break my line. A full squad of 10 anchors my army on a midfield objective or an objective at the edge of my deployment zone, and with the extra combi flamer, adds a cheap, effective tool to protect them from assault.

Also, the same upgrade on the same unit can be worth it's points, or be a waste of points simply because of how you're going to distance yourself from the enemy.

For example, taking an extra close combat weapon on a unit of 10 havoks with 4 plasma guns will double their effectiveness in close combat, but is a much poorer choice than adding an extra close combat weapon to the same 10 havoks armed with 4 melta guns, because their role is "in your face", as opposed to the "arms length" of the plasma gun.

Also, if a unit can take multiple upgrades and can be good at multiple roles, if the upgrades are cheap enough, adding flexibility can be key to responding to the changing battlefield. Key thought in that is price.

10 noise marines with salvo sonic Blasters might not seem like a good place to add in an extra close combat weapon, but because it's so cheap to give them one, you often should as it lets you double their close combat effectiveness. That means you have less to worry about closing in on the enemy to maximize their main weapon. However, adding a blast master to that same unit literally doubles the points you've spent on upgrading their guns and so is likely a waste.

"He's doing the Lord's work. And by 'Lord' I mean Lord of Skulls." -Kenny Boucher

Prepare yourselves for the onslaught men. The enemy is waiting, but your Officers are courageous and your bayonettes sharp! I have at my disposal an entire army of Muskokans, tens of thousands of armour and artillery supporting millions upon tens of millions of the Imperium's finest fighting men with courage in their bellies, fire in their hearts and lasguns in their hands. Emperor show mercy to mine enemies, for as sure as the Imperium is vast, I will not!
- General Robert Thurgood of the Emperor's Own Lasguns before the landings at Traitor's Folly at the onset of the Chrislea's Road Campaign

"Pride goeth before the fall... to Slaanesh"
- ///name stricken///, former 'Emperor's Champion' 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






All awesome discussions!

Please note that I was examining the tactic marines in a vacuum of just "a bunch of marines on foot" because it's something all players will have experience with. A Rhino greatly increases the usefulness of melta because you can get in range and limited fire points makes the bolters moot anyway. A drop pod makes flamers and meltas more useful (though I'm skeptical on the second one-five marines and a pod plus the meltas costs ~135 points for maybe a 1 in 2 chance of instantly killing a vehicle? For that to be strictly points efficient you have to get them on a 270 point vehicle. I prefer my pods as objective seizers)

The point though is to always think about whether you're limiting or helping your squad, and there are some exception cases where it's ok to only fire one thing-look at transports with limited fire points for a classic example.

And I can speak to the Klaw Nob-pretty much always useful. A power Klaw is a weapon that wounds on 2s and is AP1 against almost anything on a solid T4 W2 body. Except for the rare case of really quick models with tons of attacks he's gold in a challenge. He's a 40 point model who can hang tough with models costing 100 or more and I'll cheerily send him to die to a TEQ knowing I'll force him to take 2 invuln saves vs instant death as I go out. I take a claw nob on any foot mob of 20 or more or any Trukk mob.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
 
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