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So, my friend and I have had a few games with his new Tau (he's already got a force fairly fleshed out). I've tried using deep strike, I've tried using bikes (including bike spam), and I've tried using tanks but to no avail. His usual basis for a list is:

Commander w/ 2 Bodyguards
Hammerhead
Broadside
Pathfinders
2 squads of Fire Warriors

With Deep strike or bikes, his commander and bodyguards tear me apart, if I try tanks his Hammerhead nearly always insta-kills at least one tank before I take it down, then his broadside mops up whatever is left. I'm thinking of using sternguard or a vindicare assassin to focus fire down his commander and/or an assault squad to bog them down, but again, assault stuff rarely even makes it into close combat because of supporting fire. I am still somewhat noobish (a bit shy of 10 games under my belt), and I just can't seem to find a strategy that his army can't accomodate. So far we've been doing 1000 point games, eventually going to work our way up to 1500 and 2000 points games where I hope to stand a better chance.

A vindecare is going to be wasted points against that army.

A Thunderfire cannon is cheap and can remove a lot of the pathfinders, which will remind him that Tau are mostly BS3.

S8+ fire will instant death the broadside or the commander and bodyguards (unless the commander has the upgrade), but still...

Not so sure what to do about the Hammerhead, but I imagine if you cripple the rest of his force, it won't do so much on its own.

I think the real key is getting those pathfinders dead ASAP because without markerlights, the rest of his force is a lot less effective, and having a few things that can instant kill the commander, bodyguards, and broadside.

I think Sternguard in a pod with meltas could do it if he didn't buy the upgrade that gives him interceptor or lascannons, set up way far away in cover. (Remember the Techmarine that comes with the TFC can upgrade one cover save.) And yes, cover is still a thing you can take against Tau as long as you don't have more than 1 markerlight within 36" (Or really on average 4 since they fire at BS3). This should be possible with lascannon range and a single pathfinder unit to avoid.

I second the idea of the thunderfire. It is deviating against infantry. Point it at the pathfinders and let loose. They are the priority target like Mavnas said.

For the suits, high S low AP, or weapons that wound on a fixed number like sniper weapons and hellfire rounds might do the trick.

The Hammerhead is a bit tricky. It has a good front AV and a long range gun with a lot of punch. Maybe target it with a flyer or counterbattery it with a conversion beamer.

Try the Shield Eternal Artificer Armor Bike Chapter Master. Literally, he can drive through your opponents entire army's firepower and not even Flinch. Turn 2 he assaults something, maybe even splitting off from his companion bikes which if they have Grav should rock his Broadside Unit or Crisis.

I'm not understanding how you are having difficulties. He has a bunch if static choices and you have some things he can't readily handle at your disposal.

A TFC rill hurt him too, just hide it out of LOS and go to town turn after turn. With a couple of Pods you should be able to deliver a nasty alpha strike as well.

 Zuul wrote:
I second the idea of the thunderfire. It is deviating against infantry. Point it at the pathfinders and let loose. They are the priority target like Mavnas said.

For the suits, high S low AP, or weapons that wound on a fixed number like sniper weapons and hellfire rounds might do the trick.

The suits actually have pretty low T, but multiple wounds. Hitting them with S8+ instant kills them. This is especially awesome in the case of the broadside which has 4 wounds and a 2+ save, but is only T4. One melta or lascannon wound and it's gone. The trouble is dealing that wound through whatever cover he has it in. Actually a Chapter Master's orbital strike, if it doesn't scatter could wipe out the enemy commander and suits I think, but I think it's too uncertain to bank on. So I guess my point is that fixed number to wound things aren't too good here. Sniper weapons wound on a 4+, so do bolters. Grav on bikes if they can get close, might be effective, but if that broadsides is in cover, it will take a lot of shots to strip 4 wounds.

Actually, a CM with a Thunderhammer or Powerfist would also instant death most of those things and provide the orbital strike on turn 1 to try to make a mess of his commander (Though again, cover is a thing).

Grav should rock his Broadside Unit or Crisis.

Grav isn't as good as you think here. Assume the broadside is in 4+ cover. You shoot at BS4. Each shot = 1/3 of a wound = 12 shots to kill one broadside, which is two turns of shooting for a non-command squad. (Oh... actually I forget you also have to roll a 2+ to wound, so more like 14 shots.)
Against the crisis suits in cover 2/3 hit * 2/3 wound * 1/2 cover = 9 shots per suit. Again, more than a single bike troop squad unless you can somehow catch him in the open. Your better bet is 4 lascannon shots from a devastator squad across the board, hope one connects and insta-kills.

The biggest problems I see with this approach is the jump units should be able to get back out of LoS after shooting. The bike chapter master counters that some. The thunderfire cannon murders pathfinders and hopefully weakens incoming fire.

How many fire warriors are we talking here? I could see a situation where they could present a real danger to the CM. He can only take 12 pulse hits per wound. If your opponent bumps them up to BS5 and has two full squads, they could drop him if he's within 18" of both. I mean, I see no mention of a fireblade and an ethereal, but theoretically, with two markerlight tokens, a full squad of firewarriors and 110 points worth HQ, they could erase a bike chapter master by themselves. Think of the indigity of being killed by fire warriors. Luckily this doesn't seem to be the case here.

What kind of list are you running?

Like what was said before, lascannons are your friends. Which means devastators are your friends.

Also as said: thunderfire cannons. I am more particular to the whirlwind, but its kind of the same concept.
What I dig about the whirlwind is that the ignores cover shot is AP. 5. Meaning if you score a hit on his pathfinders in cover... See ya!

Best of luck. I think with more games you will start to get the hang of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, are you using enough cover and line of sight blocking terrain? You should be playing with enough that its not just a shooting gallery. That makes the game quite stale. One of your goals is to deny as much shooting as you can. Attack one of his units while out of line of sight to the others. Easier said than done, but you should have some sort of line of sight blocking terrain somewhere.

I was already planning on running devastators our next game, and I will definitely take a TFC as well. As far as the Commander, he always takes the signature armor that gives it a 2+ save and +1 toughness (so 5 toughness) and a stimulant injector. It's that and the shield drone he takes that makes that unit difficult, because he positions them so that shots from just about any angle will go to the commander and/or the shield drone.

Even if I shoot lascannons at the commander, it's a 5% chance for each shot to actually do any harm after all the rolls. Having to do that 4 times is just abysmally difficult (statistically it would take 80 lascannon shots). The pathfinders and fire warriors are no problem, the broadside isn't too bad, but it's the commander's squad and the hammerhead that always take me down.

As I said I tried a tank list, a bike list, a bike spam list, and this time around I'm thinking:

captain:
-artificer armor
-bike
-relic blade
-shield eternal

2 bike squads each with 2 meltaguns

sternguard with combi-meltas

devestator with 4 lascannons

thunderfire cannon

lycio wrote:
I was already planning on running devastators our next game, and I will definitely take a TFC as well. As far as the Commander, he always takes the signature armor that gives it a 2+ save and +1 toughness (so 5 toughness) and a stimulant injector. It's that and the shield drone he takes that makes that unit difficult, because he positions them so that shots from just about any angle will go to the commander and/or the shield drone.

Even if I shoot lascannons at the commander, it's a 5% chance for each shot to actually do any harm after all the rolls. Having to do that 4 times is just abysmally difficult (statistically it would take 80 lascannon shots). The pathfinders and fire warriors are no problem, the broadside isn't too bad, but it's the commander's squad and the hammerhead that always take me down.

As I said I tried a tank list, a bike list, a bike spam list, and this time around I'm thinking:

captain:
-artificer armor
-bike
-relic blade
-shield eternal

2 bike squads each with 2 meltaguns

sternguard with combi-meltas

devestator with 4 lascannons

thunderfire cannon

So he's running an Iridium commander with Stims and a shield Generator. At T5 with a 2+\4++\5+++ it's not worth shooting at him with Lascannons, just roll your Beatstick up to him and sweep him, or use your TFC Barrage to shoot around him. Barrage is the best way to avoid a tooled out BuffCommander, I'd know, he's been a staple for me for two editions now.

You are better off with a Thunderhammer on your Chaoter Master, and yes, he should be a chapter Master, Orbital Bombardment and an additional wound is worth it. Orbital is s10 and can instagib his BuffCommander or any other suits in the unit. TFCs, Orbital bombardment, and the Beatstick are literally the toughest things to face with exception of the CentStar.

Orbital bombardment is one thing I miss about playing the codex marines. Give it a go, it can be fun.

Alright, so new list is:

Chapter Master:
-artificer armor
-auspex (just to fill in the last 5 points)
-bike
-plasma pistol
-shield eternal
-thunder hammer

2 bike squads each w/ 2 meltas (maybe gravs?)

sternguard each model w/ combi-melta
-drop pod

devastator squad w/ 4 lascannons (maybe plasma cannon for blast?)

thunderfire cannon

That sheild drone is a weakness. It is only t4 and 4++, so take it out with bolter fire, then send in the heavy guns. And remember the drone counts towards units lost for forcing morale tests.

Keep the Hammerhead Jinking and it becomes a non-issue, and enforce the declare Jink before the the roll to pen checks are made.

I would also find a squad of missile launcher devastators especially useful. They'll have better range than the tau weapons forcing him to move up his suits to engage them, they'll cause instant death on all of them, and pierce the armor on all but the broadside (but a single missed armor save will still wipe one out). They can also be used to good effect against the hammerhead and if you get them on a good mysterious objective that allows rerolls on 1's or something then I can't imagine getting a more effective unit out there for as little as it costs.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
I would also find a squad of missile launcher devastators especially useful. They'll have better range than the tau weapons forcing him to move up his suits to engage them, they'll cause instant death on all of them, and pierce the armor on all but the broadside (but a single missed armor save will still wipe one out). They can also be used to good effect against the hammerhead and if you get them on a good mysterious objective that allows rerolls on 1's or something then I can't imagine getting a more effective unit out there for as little as it costs.

What exactly do they bring that lascannons don't?

The ability to switch between small blast frag rounds and S8 krak rounds.

Indeed, the missiles are very effective at also knocking out pathfinder or firewarrior units giving him more good targets each turn and they cost less (but I was thinking the difference was 10 per instead of just 5). Still, every bit helps when you're at low point games like 1000 points. I'd run 2 missile devastator squads myself if I knew I was going against that army.

I don't think you appreciate how bad missile are. A lascannon shot has a 1/2 chance to strip a hull point from the Hammerhead and a 1/12th to blow it up. A missile has a 1/3rd chance to strip a hull point and no chance to explode it. The las cannon devs will kill it in two turns on average and will pen it first turn (chance to make it not fire) or more realistically force a jink save. The missiles...

The lascannons will insta-kill a broadside. The missiles will kill 1/6th of one.

If fired at the commander, I wouldn't even LoS! the shots unless there's nothing else to save the drones for. The lascannons will strip wounds if not LoS! Though neither is that great at killing that squad.

In exchange, you get a weapon that might kill 3-4 fire warriors.

Yes, missiles have more targets, because they suck no matter what you fire them at.

I think I'll lay off on the missile devs for now. I want to see how this list does for our next match, then maybe add those in if they would seem useful

missile launcher devs always work well for me. though that said so do lascannon devs. Its all about how many points I have left. If I have enough after the main meat of my army to grab las cannon devs I will, since they are usually a supporting roll.

I guess in my above post knocking missile devs, I should note that against different armies like biker marines that have a lot of 3+ saves or Tau armies with more crisis suits the missiles don't look so bad.

They're just not as good if you need to deal with 2+ or pop vehicles. The problem is that going from AP2 to AP3 makes them 6x worse against 2+ armor saves in the open (2-3x worse against things in cover). Unlike S, AP is all or nothing.

I try not to count on pen table results to blow up a vehicle outright anyway, what I look for is forcing the vehicle to be ineffective for a turn. In that sense, I find opponents are likely going to jink whether you fire 4 missiles or 4 lasercannons at their skimmers either way.

The reason I'd advocate missiles is because of how important it is to knock out the pathfinders first, which the missiles will do an excellent job at. Second turn, I'd be knocking out the crisis suits as the only mobile part of his army with enough ability to threaten his long range. I'm not saying lasercannons aren't great, but especially in really low point games like he's describing, I think that's a spot where the missiles will actually be just as good or better at the targets he needs to kill first and for less points.

The lasercannons are a perfectly good option as well if you think you can fit them in, but it would force me to target his broadsides and hammerhead first which I don't think are the targets you should worry about in the beginning.

I play against the same Tau player weekly, runs a similar list to you.

First up, drop pod melta dread. Pop that damn hammerhead turn one.

Also drop in Sternies and have a final pod with a tactical squad in.

The sternies with combi flamers and heavy flamer blitz the pathfinders that are inevitably in cover with their measly 5+

Once you have the hammerhead and the markers gone it is a case of wiping out the troops and even with his tough commander and broadside he will find it hard to win, stick a melta and combi melta on the drop Tacticals and when they come in go for the broadside.