Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok so I have been plaing against a friend who started using IG, he uses 2 Wyverns, 3 lemanruss ( 1 BC with LC, 1 BC with heavy flamer, and 1 executioner with pask). He also keeps a dark angels Libby with a grav generator on a bike giving them a 4++. The Libby provides support for the tanks as well( invisibility, prescience ,etc)

How can I counter that? Should I get some chaos support?

I only win if we playing a deployment with a horizontal start, his blast put a hurt'in on my Boyz :(

Context man we need more info. What points are you playing? What type of force are you running? Give us more info and maybe I can make a few suggestions.

1000-1500 points. I run a green tide with big Mek with KFF, pain boy, and warboss with power claw and the lucky stikk. What units can help support that? Or what kinda of list should I run? More vehicles less troops?

I'll preface this by saying it'd be a huge shift from what you're running:

I'd honestly recommend a biker blob, probably backed up with a manz missle or two, and then some support as you see fit (of course still with a few boyz).

Right now, in order to function, Melee needs to be some combination of fast, tough, and extremely killy - on occasion two out of three will work, but usually you need to dip into all three to function. Bikers and missles cover all three of those quite well, and the bikers themselves put out enough mid strength firepower to shred most infantry and wreck light vehicles - though you'll usually want to be charging...

I just don't think Tide's going to do that much against what he's running. All those vehicles means he can play keep away quite effectively, and a blob of 100+ models with craptastic saves is the best case scenario for wyverns.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I'll preface this by saying it'd be a huge shift from what you're running:

I'd honestly recommend a biker blob, probably backed up with a manz missle or two, and then some support as you see fit (of course still with a few boyz).

Right now, in order to function, Melee needs to be some combination of fast, tough, and extremely killy - on occasion two out of three will work, but usually you need to dip into all three to function. Bikers and missles cover all three of those quite well, and the bikers themselves put out enough mid strength firepower to shred most infantry and wreck light vehicles - though you'll usually want to be charging...

I just don't think Tide's going to do that much against what he's running. All those vehicles means he can play keep away quite effectively, and a blob of 100+ models with craptastic saves is the best case scenario for wyverns.

Ok that's what I had an idea of... I have Manz, now I will need to purchase some bikes. Would 2 squads of 5 be good enough? And also, I was thinking about using deff koptas , and out flanking them. I think that should help as well, I will just invest more in fast attack/ elites to help me out against that list.

Would getting any chaos help? I was thinking maybe something like a term squad , and DS near his tanks with plasma and melta guns

Two squads of five - I assume you're talking bikers right, not manz? Five manz can only just fit in a truck, and they'll never get anywhere near an important target with 200+points riding around in that rickety old thing.

That said, when it comes to bikers, bigger is better. You want to run the whole, decked-out unit. 15 bikers + nob with PK, Warboss with Stikk on a bike, and a painboy on a bike. We're talking a squad that -will- get a turn two charge if it wants to, has 4+ armor saves, 3+ cover saves (you'll be Turbo Boosting turn one to get closer to combat - you will also be jinking if shot at. No questions), and has unit wide FNP. Every model in there is toughness 5, with the boss himself being at 6. If you want to, the unit can put out 51 (I think? It's late, math is bad) TL'd shots of a good strength.

Barring cheesy deathstars, 15 man biker mob with a boss and a painboy is one of the scariest units you will ever see on the table top - it's also one of the toughest. Try to intervening terrain to minimize the amount of fire the enemy can pour into you if at all possible, but be aware that you want to wreck face.

Koptas are underrated, especially since they got buffed. They're not bikers by any means, but for their cost you get your choice of TL weapons and a biker stat-line with two wounds instead of +1 cover. A couple of small squads (1-3 per squad) run great interference. They'll threaten side / rear armor, heckle infantry with their weapons, and tie up important squads in combat so they can't shoot. Basically, if the enemy takes the time to actually shoot koptas to death they'll make their points back with the models they save from other units in your army. Also, if they tie up a scary unit or two for a turn or two to keep them from firing.. They again make their points back. They're great.

So far as Chaos goes, that's not my field. I run pure ork - I dislike allies. I can't give you any semi educated advice on that sort of thing so I'll just keep my mouth shut.

A couplt of battlewagonz will ruin his little cosy parking lot. But that's gona be a huge shift from a green tide to speed freaks cause just a single BW or a single MANz missile ain't gona frighten nobody.

If you want to stick to greentide, i'd recommend lobbas and koptas/buggies. They are the only thing that will more or less reliably shut down wiverns turn 1. Leman russes are not that frightening. Even Pasknisher will just kill ~7-9 boyz a turn within 24' and will properly get charged after 2 rounds of shooting at best. Lobbas will also help alot vs his blobs with priests/comissars. Take out the one with the fanciest hat and umiez can't do much anymore.

So, big gunz + koptas/buggies will help your greentide alot. They're fairly cheap and effective. Not as effective vs parking lots as speed freaks but will definitely help you out.

Would a gorkanaught / mork be any good for support ? Av 13 should be nice against them as well

Almost never good. Too slow, too expensive, vulnerable to damage table. And it's not solving your problem of being outshot from afar. It should have been a lil' super heavy like an imperial knight to function good. Or 100 pt cheaper.

My best AT ever are my Koptas. Fast, jinks and hitting rear armor with S7.
Otherwise BW with Tankbustas and MANZ.

 RedizDead wrote:
My best AT ever are my Koptas. Fast, jinks and hitting rear armor with S7.
Otherwise BW with Tankbustas and MANZ.

Actually, the rokkit launcher is S8, not S7, so even better

I assume, he's talking bout buzzsaws.

Yes sorry, buzzsaws

Played a ganme recently against 3 d-cannon batteries - not wyverns but nine blasts still. My MVP unit was a Warbosson a bike, painboy on a bike, big mek kff killsaw on a bike, 3 deffkoptas one buzzsaw. I also had two manz missiles moving forward. If you are careful positioning you might get fnp on the manz too.

I also had two warpheads outflanking ( I got lucky on strtegic) with twenty shoota boyz with rokkits. It was the first time I managed to get to an Eldar list with those bloody d-cannons ( he was also summoning daemons to buffer his units - doh).

This is just not an ideal match up for a horde list. You are likely going to lose unless you change it up. And even then against wyverns it is uphill.

The existence of the Wyvern nipped my idea of a Kroot infantry based army in the nub. It was a day of great mourning.

Alcibiades wrote:
The existence of the Wyvern nipped my idea of a Kroot infantry based army in the nub. It was a day of great mourning.

Wyvern really did ruin the idea of swarms...way too many reoll's

Especially anybody who depends on cover.

It is very bad game design to create a unit from which there is no defense, if you ask me.

wyverns are the antithesis of orks,

very hard counter to orks in other words,


you need things like battle wagons that they cannot hurt (which also stand up to most anti tank stuff like missles and lascannons, at least long enough to discourge their contents)

tankbustas are great for orks in this respect to put into the BW's

a round of shooting and getting into CC should finish off any vehicles that IG can feild.

They are a pretty hard counter to Orks. Could always try Lootas and going first, lol.

Otherwise any reliable AT that can deliver a strike Turn 2 should be adequate. Koptas etc even DakkaJets could do the trick. Lobbas can do it, S5 Barrage, a Shokk can. Anything that can pen them makes them snap shot, and they can't snap shot. Otherwise, if they've got multiple you are in for a tough match.

Remember, anything with Barrage hits them on AV10 which isn't terribly difficult to hurt. And Barrage doesn't' need LoS.

yeah, lobba are actually quite decent against them,

first lobba gets the reroll with a ammo runt, since templates really small, any direction rolled after the first one should still hit the vehicle too.

lobbas are quite a good choice for most ork lists too,