Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I havent played 40k in years, I'm starting a new Astra militarum army and am running across many rules questions:

1. Blast / Template weapons hitting open topped transports - I could have swore that blast and template weapons that hit open topped transports also hit the units inside, but I've re-skimmed the transport / open topped rules a couple times and I'm not sure if I'm just missing the rule somewhere, or if I'm remembering an older version of the rules, or just having a common sense vs rules block in my head. can somebody please clarify w/ a pg number or rule quote if possible (please say I'm correct on this, the thought that in the event of an apocalyptic blast the safest place for a grot to be is in the bed of a pickup truck will make me have an aneurysm)

2. Shooting transports with units inside - say I have a heavy weapons team shooting at an ork trukk with a unit of boys inside... the first model firing destroys the trukk... the unit of boyz that were inside the trukk, do they count as the same unit so the rest of my heavy weapons team can continue their attacks against them? is that heavy weapons team done and unable to fire at anything else because the trukk wrecked? does the transport in question being a dedicated transport make a difference in this situation?

3. Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly because its rules that give rules that affect rules: Tank commander Pask has Old grudges, which gives him Preferred enemy, which allows rerolls of 1's both to hit and to wound... This means that Leman russ executioner (plasmacutioner) with plasma cannon sponsons, rerolling 1's to hit and to wound is a 36" death bubble with almost no chance of "gets hot", am I missing something? why is this not in every tournament list everywhere?

There were other questions I cant remember off the top of my head, will add here if I remember them

**added
4: when a vehicle uses smoke grenades, it becomes obscured, granting a cover save. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but can enemy units still charge the obscured vehicle? I could see an arguement for not being able to charge a unit it cant see, but I doubt it

5. Multiple blast weapons from a single unit attacking transports with troops inside: I have many units with multiple blast weapons to fire, for example lets say my Paskacusioner (Pask + Executioner + plasma sponsons) 5 blast shots... do I find the locations of all 5 blasts and begin resolving after the 5 blasts have been placed (thereby allowing that if the 2nd blast destroys the trukk, the remaining blasts could damage the unit that came out), or are the blasts resolved 1 at a time until the trukk is destroyed? *if the above answer is to stop at trukk death, would the process change for multiple barrage weapons where you would normally find the locations of all the blasts before resolving

6: Ministorum Priests and Hymns - when the leadership for the hymn is being taken, is it strictly at the priests own leadership score or best in the unit as normal so that a commissar could be a benefit?

7: Multiple rerolls - the answer for this may be a blanket for all rolls or maybe it varies depending on the type, but if a unit is given rerolls from multiple effects, do they stack? for example coteaz has his mastercrafted hammer, if he's also in a unit with priests for hatred, does he get to reroll misses from the hatred, and get the chance to reroll again from his hammer?

1. Look at the 'No Escape' rule for Template weapons.

1. Templates infilict d6 random hits on units in OTT when they hit the transport. Its the No Escape Rule on templates on the special rules section. Blasts don't do anything special.

2. You cannot continue shooting at the passengers no matter the transport type. You can declare assault on them though. Its mentioned on the transports section on the vehicles chapter "Effects of Damage on Passengers". Its the last thing before the flyers section.

3. Yes it is. So much fun!

2) embarked units are never the same unit as the transport, so no.

I would add certain (controversial) clarification points:

1. Covered (Templates Special Rule and Blasts have no effect)

2. Another unit may fire (so 1 Heavy weapons squad can only fire at the transport but a second unit next to them can target passengers)

3. Blast weapons have a sub-section called Blast Weapons and Re-rolls, allowing you to re-roll the Scatter on your blast as well as Re-rolling the D6 for the Gets hot! Rule. (This is the controversial bit) Be ready for a huge discussion if you require details, but i recommend you just check what your opponent thinks of it.

1. My head my explode at the thought that a deathstrike missile is unable to kill a grot if he is in the back of a pickup truck... but thanks for the answer

2. I thought so but thanks for clearing it up, BTW, it really irks me that even the tank commander order for firing on a separate unit specifically denies firing on a disembarked unit... really annoys me to no end

3. so I am correct then? with RAW pask + plasmacutioner + plasma sponsons = 36" death bubble... fun!

 BlackTalos wrote:

3. Blast weapons have a sub-section called Blast Weapons and Re-rolls, allowing you to re-roll the Scatter on your blast as well as Re-rolling the D6 for the Gets hot! Rule. (This is the controversial bit) Be ready for a huge discussion if you require details, but i recommend you just check what your opponent thinks of it.

Check on Special rules under Gets hot on the Gets hot and Rerolls section "it may
also re-roll Gets Hot results of 1 for weapons that do not roll To Hit"

" Blast weapons have a sub-section called Blast Weapons and Re-rolls, allowing you to re-roll the Scatter on your blast as well as Re-rolling the D6 for the Gets hot! Rule. (This is the controversial bit) Be ready for a huge discussion if you require details, but i recommend you just check what your opponent thinks of it. "

This brings up a side issue that I'm not sure about: preferred enemy allows rerolls of 1's to hit, but not all to hit rolls, the blast rules are that if you can reroll to-hit's you can re-roll scatter... as written I dont think that preferred enemy would let you reroll scatter since it's not all to-hit rolls, just 1's, but I could see the argument for the opposite

any tournament players available to weigh in with how it's handled in the main stream?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a new question

4: when a vehicle uses smoke grenades, it becomes obscured, granting a cover save. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but can enemy units still charge the obscured vehicle? I could see an arguement for not being able to charge a unit it cant see, but I doubt it

There is no requirement in the rerolls rules for "how good" a Reroll you need. PE IS enough to Reroll scatter. RAW

It has a cover save , but assuming you can still draw LOS, you can charge it. Nothing about the smoke launcher gives you real, physical object to use as cover.

Makarios wrote:
" Blast weapons have a sub-section called Blast Weapons and Re-rolls, allowing you to re-roll the Scatter on your blast as well as Re-rolling the D6 for the Gets hot! Rule. (This is the controversial bit) Be ready for a huge discussion if you require details, but i recommend you just check what your opponent thinks of it. "

This brings up a side issue that I'm not sure about: preferred enemy allows rerolls of 1's to hit, but not all to hit rolls, the blast rules are that if you can reroll to-hit's you can re-roll scatter... as written I dont think that preferred enemy would let you reroll scatter since it's not all to-hit rolls, just 1's, but I could see the argument for the opposite

any tournament players available to weigh in with how it's handled in the main stream?

Prescience doesn't grant a reroll for all to hit rolls, just failed ones.
If you're applying a "quality" argument, please explain why Prescience is/isn't exempt.

a new question

4: when a vehicle uses smoke grenades, it becomes obscured, granting a cover save. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but can enemy units still charge the obscured vehicle? I could see an arguement for not being able to charge a unit it cant see, but I doubt it

Since when does a cover save mean LoS is blocked?

Another new question

5. Multiple blast weapons from a single unit attacking transports with troops inside: I have many units with multiple blast weapons to fire, for example lets say my Paskacusioner (Pask + Executioner + plasma sponsons) 5 blast shots... do I find the locations of all 5 blasts and begin resolving after the 5 blasts have been placed (thereby allowing that if the 2nd blast destroys the trukk, the remaining blasts could damage the unit that came out), or are the blasts resolved 1 at a time until the trukk is destroyed?

*if the above answer is to stop at trukk death, would the process change for multiple barrage weapons where you would normally find the locations of all the blasts before resolving

For both examples you give, the answer is the same:

2. Another unit may fire (so 1 Heavy weapons squad can only fire at the transport but a second unit next to them can target passengers)

As long as the Unit is the same unit: Pask in Executioner or 3-Wyvern Unit, they can only ever target 1 enemy unit, being the transport or the passengers (after transport is destroyed).

Makarios wrote:
4: when a vehicle uses smoke grenades, it becomes obscured, granting a cover save. I'm assuming the answer is yes, but can enemy units still charge the obscured vehicle? I could see an arguement for not being able to charge a unit it cant see, but I doubt it

You can charge units which are affected by Invisibility, so its hard to argue that you can't something in a could of smoke. Either way, obscured just provides a cover save, it does not affect combat.

5. Multiple blast weapons from a single unit attacking transports with troops inside: I have many units with multiple blast weapons to fire, for example lets say my Paskacusioner (Pask + Executioner + plasma sponsons) 5 blast shots... do I find the locations of all 5 blasts and begin resolving after the 5 blasts have been placed (thereby allowing that if the 2nd blast destroys the trukk, the remaining blasts could damage the unit that came out), or are the blasts resolved 1 at a time until the trukk is destroyed? *if the above answer is to stop at trukk death, would the process change for multiple barrage weapons where you would normally find the locations of all the blasts before resolving

You would chose whether you resolve the executioner or the sponsons first, then determine all hits from those, roll pen for all those hits, apply damage. If the trukk is still alive, you can now resolve the weapons you didn't shoot. If the trukk is dead, you stop shooting.

You basically resolve one weapon type at a time. If you have three griffons in a unit, you would determine the number of hits for all of them first, then roll for pen, then apply damage.

5. Multiple blast weapons from a single unit attacking transports with troops inside: I have many units with multiple blast weapons to fire, for example lets say my Paskacusioner (Pask + Executioner + plasma sponsons) 5 blast shots... do I find the locations of all 5 blasts and begin resolving after the 5 blasts have been placed (thereby allowing that if the 2nd blast destroys the trukk, the remaining blasts could damage the unit that came out), or are the blasts resolved 1 at a time until the trukk is destroyed?

It feels like the previous responses, though correct, are overly complicated.

Short answer: Your plasma shots can only kill the transport.

It kind of makes a difference though. If you just shoot the executioner and wreck the transport, you can no longer shoot the sponsons as well in order to score an explosion.

Jidmah-
You're absolutely right. I was just trying to answer the most basic concern in his question, and that's whether or not his additional plasma shots can target the unit inside if they get blasted out. Which they cannot.

Thanks for all the responses

with question 5, I'm really looking for the smartest way to play against transport vehicles, so my understanding is that no matter what type of fire / situation, no unit can in a single shooting round kill both the transport and the unit inside? *not including exploded results/templates to get a couple hits

so multiple barrages cant do it, even in the first barrage blast kills the vehicle the other blasts ignore the newly placed unit under the blast markers? same for multiple blast weapons like the executioners cannon? if that's true then the point Jidmah brings up would be my next question, are the remaining weapons still allowed to fire in the attempt to get better vehicle destroyed results?

 BlackTalos wrote:


As long as the Unit is the same unit: Pask in Executioner or 3-Wyvern Unit, they can only ever target 1 enemy unit, being the transport or the passengers (after transport is destroyed).

I just had to point out BlackTalos that the point of my question was the exception to this, yes blast weapons can only target 1 unit, but due to the nature of blasts they often damage other nearby units, my question was basically can this be applied to the disembarking unit from a destroyed transport

Makarios wrote:
Thanks for all the responses

with question 5, I'm really looking for the smartest way to play against transport vehicles, so my understanding is that no matter what type of fire / situation, no unit can in a single shooting round kill both the transport and the unit inside? *not including exploded results/templates to get a couple hits

so multiple barrages cant do it, even in the first barrage blast kills the vehicle the other blasts ignore the newly placed unit under the blast markers? same for multiple blast weapons like the executioners cannon? if that's true then the point Jidmah brings up would be my next question, are the remaining weapons still allowed to fire in the attempt to get better vehicle destroyed results?

 BlackTalos wrote:


As long as the Unit is the same unit: Pask in Executioner or 3-Wyvern Unit, they can only ever target 1 enemy unit, being the transport or the passengers (after transport is destroyed).

I just had to point out BlackTalos that the point of my question was the exception to this, yes blast weapons can only target 1 unit, but due to the nature of blasts they often damage other nearby units, my question was basically can this be applied to the disembarking unit from a destroyed transport

The thing you have to keep in mind is that all similar types of weapons are fired and resolved simultaneously. So your 5 plasma cannons all fire and score their hits and are all resolved against the transport. Furthermore, if those shots destroy said transports, you would loose all other shooting with the unit because the target you were firing at is gone. I.e. the first blast can't destroy anything until all the other blasts are placed and resolved as well.

Makarios wrote:
Thanks for all the responses

with question 5, I'm really looking for the smartest way to play against transport vehicles, so my understanding is that no matter what type of fire / situation, no unit can in a single shooting round kill both the transport and the unit inside? *not including exploded results/templates to get a couple hits

Correct.

so multiple barrages cant do it, even in the first barrage blast kills the vehicle the other blasts ignore the newly placed unit under the blast markers? same for multiple blast weapons like the executioners cannon?

I'll list the steps to make it more clear
1) You put down blast markers over the transport and count hits until all blasts are resolved
2) You roll penetration rolls
3) Opponent uses cover/invul saves/ramshackle
4) Roll on damage table, if applicable. Apply damage results.
5) If the transport is destroyed, disembark passengers.

By the time you actually have any passengers in the open, you'd already have all blasts resolved against the vehicle.

if that's true then the point Jidmah brings up would be my next question, are the remaining weapons still allowed to fire in the attempt to get better vehicle destroyed results?

They are not, this is one of the big changes in 7th. If the target is gone or out of range after resolving previous weapons of a unit, they can no longer shoot. This makes the order in which you shoot your weapons very important. For example, if your plasma blasts fire at a unit of ork boyz and kill all of the orks within 12" of your tank, you can no longer use your hull-mounted flamer to harm the unit. You would have to fire your flamer first while there are still orks in range and then use your blasts to kill those further away.

In the same way, when you want to cause hits on the embarked unit with a flamer, you have to do so before destroying the transport, because you are not longer allowed to shoot when your target is dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chanceafs wrote:
The thing you have to keep in mind is that all similar types of weapons are fired and resolved simultaneously. So your 5 plasma cannons all fire and score their hits and are all resolved against the transport. Furthermore, if those shots destroy said transports, you would loose all other shooting with the unit because the target you were firing at is gone. I.e. the first blast can't destroy anything until all the other blasts are placed and resolved as well.

IIRC the main cannon is not the same as the sponson guns, so you'd have to fire them in two waves.

6: Ministorum Priests and Hymns - when the leadership for the hymn is being taken, is it strictly at the priests own leadership score or best in the unit as normal so that a commissar could be a benefit?

7: Multiple rerolls - the answer for this may be a blanket for all rolls or maybe it varies depending on the type, but if a unit is given rerolls from multiple effects, do they stack? for example coteaz has his mastercrafted hammer, if he's also in a unit with priests for hatred, does he get to reroll misses from the hatred, and get the chance to reroll again from his hammer?

Makarios wrote:
7: Multiple rerolls - the answer for this may be a blanket for all rolls or maybe it varies depending on the type, but if a unit is given rerolls from multiple effects, do they stack? for example coteaz has his mastercrafted hammer, if he's also in a unit with priests for hatred, does he get to reroll misses from the hatred, and get the chance to reroll again from his hammer?

It's the same as its always been. You can never reroll a dice more than once, no matter where the reroll comes from.

6. No idea, depends on the wording. If it requires a leadership check of the unit, commissars will help, if it requires the priest's leadership, no help allowed.

7. You can never re-roll a dice that you have already re-rolled unless the rules explicitly tell you to do so. Rolling psychic powers you already have would be such an exception.

6 rules now differentiate between unit and model leadership check. The priests rule is a model check, so uses the models leadership

 Jidmah wrote:
7. You can never re-roll a dice that you have already re-rolled unless the rules explicitly tell you to do so. Rolling psychic powers you already have would be such an exception.

In situations like that they use the term 'roll again', which to GW makes it different from a re-roll