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As it stands, the Serpent Shield on the Eldar Wave Serpent is devastating by all measures. There is nothing wrong with this, but what I feel creates a disparity in game play is the extremely long range and destructive potency that this shield can have when directed as a weapon.

The current version has Range 60", S7, AP-, Assault 1d6+1, Pinning, Ignores Cover

When used as a weapon, the Serpent Shield provides no protective benefit (on a 2+ roll, convert a penetrating hit into a glancing hit).

Keeping the cost of the Wave Serpent, the range of its firepower, and potential as an anti-vehicle weapon intact, I would propose that this would be a more balanced unit engendering competitive gameplay if the weapon's potency against vehicles and high toughness creatures was reduced in range.

Towards this end, I would propose the following rule change:

Serpent Shield
When the Eldar Wave Serpents advance, they do so behind powerful shields. These can be discharged to unleash a bow-wave of raw force. At close range, the bow-wave is powerful enough to break through vehicle armour, and as it travels, the wave disperses to cover a wider area still potent enough to scour infantry from their positions.

In the shooting phase, the Wave Serpent can deactivate its shields to shoot a burst of energy with one of the following profiles:
Range S AP Type 18" 7 - Assault 3, Pinning, Ignores Cover 36" 5 - Assault 5, Pinning, Ignores Cover 60" 3 - Assault 7, Pinning, Ignores Cover

 madric wrote:
As it stands, the Serpent Shield on the Eldar Wave Serpent is devastating by all measures. There is nothing wrong with this, but what I feel creates a disparity in game play is the extremely long range and destructive potency that this shield can have when directed as a weapon.

The current version has Range 60", S7, AP-, Assault 1d6+1, Pinning, Ignores Cover

Keeping the cost of the Wave Serpent, the range of its firepower, and potential as an anti-vehicle weapon intact, I would propose that this would be a more balanced unit engendering competitive gameplay if the weapon's potency against vehicles and high toughness creatures was reduced in range.

I didn't see the shield getting AP2 in 18" or ap3/4 on your middle range or haywire anywhere. So you are basically saying nerf the wave serpent and not lower the point cost. If that's your view, fine, but please title it "Nerf the Wave Serpent" instead of calling it "balance". Please don't claim "guaranteed 7 shots" at 18" if a buff for an AV10 rear armour vehicle who can be killed by anything with S4 or a krak grenade. As written and costed, the Wave serpent is not really a transport. It is an AV 10 rear tank that can be used to transport troops, preferably dropping them off before the battle.

GW seems to be headed towards making DT's FA choices so we'll see where it heads. Until then, exactly what do you think a 160 point tank (as generally run, +/-15) should be able to do? It's also the only dedicated transport option in an army whose T3 troops average 12" range with a 5++. I'd love to give my banshees a land speeder storm. I might field them since they'd get an assault vehicles AND grenades. Or my dragons/wraithscythes a drop pod for 35 points instead of 160 "nicely equipped". For context, a typical Wave serpent cost about as much as 4 rhinos with an HK each, 3 wave serpents are about 2 land raiders worth, and 2 Wave Serpents are ~3 fire prisms worth of points.

Wave Serpent spam doesn't win tournaments - three rhinos/rb aren't spam, neither are 3 ws, and people taking 6 are a scissor in a rock-paper-scissor meta. If you think the WS is OP, use a drop pods and tact squads to drop 2 krak grenades (combat squads) T1 at AV 10 rear along with 16 bolter shots or the special weapons of your choice. I'm tired of hearing complaints about "SWS" the Schrodinger's Wave Serpent, where people assume it is priced with no options, hides in cover unmoving, with its back to the edge, firing the AP- shield and rolling a six every time, while somehow still having it up for glance reduction, never exposing AV10 while also flying 30+" a turn to evade the only enemy unit on the board. Also it somehow has scatter lasers vs hordes and a brightlance when facing a landraider.


No anti-air and facing 3 stormraven or Helldrake or or Necron flyers? Expect some pain, or adapt to expect it. If you have no bikes or other fast moving guys, no assault capable troops (aka krak grenades), no assault vehicles, no deep strike, no scouts, infiltrators or outflankers and are upset that the wave serpent hiding in cover is killing your AV11 razorback or AV11 side armour fully exposed that is hiding in cover... then expect to get mocked when you have a worse gunline if you go up against a better one.


Try an AV13 predator and use the tricks you claim the Schrodinger's WS uses. Take a pair and you can even give it a rhino buddy for 35" for an AV11 3 HP "shield". on either side. Landraiders ignore the serpent shield 100% of the time, as well as every other non melta weapon in the codex other than the brightlance - which is apparently never taken since the shield is somehow always twin linked when people want to "balance it".

The WS is good, but the only reason you see it often in an Eldar list is there is no other DT option and the actual tanks are in the most contested HS slot. If your local guy is running , sure, teach him a lesson about meta. 6 drop pod tact squads combat squadding will crush them with a few bikers coming in behind to jam up their movement. He can blow a hole in the guys in line, but only 2 serpents can get into it between the drop pods. Movement phase movement and shooting phase movement aren't combined so that 7" hull is only moving 12" if firing. Drop pod Iron clads mixed in will block/wreck them by the bottom of T2. Take empty thunderfire pods if you need to pad things out, or scout rhino's up 12", move 6" diesmark 6" and still be ready to charge T2 after tossing kraks. If you don't have/want pods and if it hides in a corner all game, refuse the flank. The SL is only 36" and 1d6+1 shots of AP- are nothing to fear compared to a dakka predator for almost half the cost.

There is literally nothing in the Space Marine Codex that can't kill a wave serpent in shooting, or reliably in close combat. 5 marines will, on average kill it in CC if you get a single glance first. If you are not marines, best find out what can reliably get you in combat T2/3 or it's not just Eldar that will crunch you in 6th/7th ed.

Just an aside, for the Eldar haters the holofield does two things:
1) Grants a +1 to cover IF you moved in the previous phase.
2) It gives a 6+ if you have no cover save.

It does NOT give you 3+ cover for jinking (or ruins) if you didn't move.

Version changes are easy to miss. I just played a GK who took 5+ FNP all game long on 4 fleet assassins. It cost me the nail biter of a game, but it would have been over T3 otherwise. Imperial Guard lasguns are not S10 AP2. Anything you are playing wrong may seem OP, but if you follow the actual rules, they're a good unit in a good codex.

For reference, I've played as SM exclusively the past year and not biker marines at that. When I played Eldar, I usually only took 0 or 2 serpents, and never ran a seer council. I want both players to have fun, and neither to lose to a purple sun of xereus kind of thing ala fantasy.

If you want to go with the multi-profile approach, you might want to go with something like the conversion beamer, where the range determines the profile.

Instead of boosting the number of shots, you might want to go with template/small blast/large blast to represent the expanding wave.

The Shield has no business being an anti-tank weapon in any fire mode. What it should do is automatic Pinning or Strikedown or something like that, no damage.

This idea is a slight variant from the old Aspect Assault Wave Apocalypse formation.

As long as the Wave Serpent is mobile, it may project it's Shield instead of shooting (or moving Flat Out). All units within D6" of the Wave Serpent (friend or foe) must take a Pinning test.

Note that this does not remove the shield for a turn.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The Shield has no business being an anti-tank weapon in any fire mode. What it should do is automatic Pinning or Strikedown or something like that, no damage.

if so, it would not fit the fluff. do you realy thnk pinning a unit in cover is very effecent? i\s not like they are going to move annytime soon anyway.

IMO, its profile is fine, just modify the range. 18,24, 30" would all be appropriate. Having one of the best weapons it has access to be built in, 60" in range, and Ignores cover is the problem. I'd probably land on 24" as the sweet spot for range. Its costs would still be appropriate for what it does. At closer ranges the shield would still be a very effective weapon, it just wouldn't be as immensely powerful as it is right now.

Also, it should be a fixed forward 45 degree arc, non of this 225 degrees that many of the big tournaments have ruled. It would still be a phenomenal unit with a 24" range Serpent Shield. Simple, and effective fix.

It would still be a very effective Transport, still highly resilient, but wouldn't be able to put out the huge amount of firepwoer it does at long ranges. Forcing the Serpents closer opens them up to assault etc and increases the incentive for filling them with usable units instead of min DA squads.

Pyromanchis wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The Shield has no business being an anti-tank weapon in any fire mode. What it should do is automatic Pinning or Strikedown or something like that, no damage.

if so, it would not fit the fluff. do you realy thnk pinning a unit in cover is very effecent? i\s not like they are going to move annytime soon anyway.

I don't know what fluff you're reading that has Serpent Shields punching through enemy tanks. It was always a suppression weapon meant to push away enemy troops so the transported unit could disembark safely.

I think a lot of the balance issues would be solved by 2 changes:
Replace Ignores Cover with Pinning/Strikedown. Why is it a 60" Ignore cover in the first place?
FAQ it so that it doesn't benefit from the laser lock TL. It should not be getting the buff for being a weapon at the same time as it claims not to be a weapon and thus immune to weapon destroyed.

Wes, how many points do you think it's worth?

If something makes a unit OP, I'd like to know how many points people think the OPness is worth, and expect to get those points back if it loses the ability. It is priced at having a shield that flips into a gun, so any nerf needs to bring the price down to be fair, be able to transport multiple units, get an assault ramp or whatever.

If you think the ability is only worth 5 or 10 points it doesn't seem very OP to me and if it is worth 20 or 40 I'd hope to get something worth 20/40 back to as points to spend elsewhere. It may be one of the best transport in the (non-necron) game, but it's also the most fragile and expensive so it needs to fulfill two roles.

If your looking for a points comparison:

A. its a secondary heavy weapon

B. it also provides a very nice defensive boost alternatively.


Most secondary heavy weapons on vehicles are purchased for 15-25 points.

An assault cannon is 20 points for 4 str 6 rending shots at 24".

Based on just that i would expect you to pay about 5-10 points more just for the current serpent shield weapon profile. Thats not even counting the defensive ability which i'd only price at 5-10 points since you cant use them both at the same time.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Wes, how many points do you think it's worth?

If something makes a unit OP, I'd like to know how many points people think the OPness is worth, and expect to get those points back if it loses the ability. It is priced at having a shield that flips into a gun, so any nerf needs to bring the price down to be fair, be able to transport multiple units, get an assault ramp or whatever.

If you think the ability is only worth 5 or 10 points it doesn't seem very OP to me and if it is worth 20 or 40 I'd hope to get something worth 20/40 back to as points to spend elsewhere. It may be one of the best transport in the (non-necron) game, but it's also the most fragile and expensive so it needs to fulfill two roles.

This is a fascinating approach to things, and I would like to take a stab at it. I am most familiar with AM, so I will use that as a reference.

At 115pt, the Wave Serpent has Transport 12, BS4, AV 12/12/10, a Twin-linked shuriken catapult (12" Range, Assault 2, S4, AP5, Bladestorm), and a Twin-linked shuriken cannon (24" Range, Assault 3, S6, AP5, Bladestorm), and Serpent Shield, and it is Fast, and a Skimmer.
For comparison, at 65pt, the Chimera has Transport 12, BS3, AV 12/10/10, a heavy bolter (36" Range, Heavy 3, S5, AP4), and a multilaser (36" Range, Heavy 3, S6, AP6).

These vehicles differ in cost by 50pt, let's see if we can account for that.

If I started with a Wave Serpent, I would pay 5pt to get a heavy bolter instead of the twin-linked shuriken catapult, the range is that important. However, I would call the Shuriken Cannon and the Multilaser a draw (range on one side, twin-linked and bladestorm on the other). I'd rather have the Shuriken Cannon, but I don't think I'd pay many points to swap out a Multilaser for one. So the Shuriken weapons account for maybe 5/50 points.

The difference in cost between a Taurox (BS3) and a Taurox Prime (BS4, Fast, Taurox battle cannon) is 30pt, so that gives an upper bound of the cost of upgrading to Fast and BS4. These two upgrades account for under 30/50pt. I think the Taurox Battle cannon is worth 10pt, so let's say the BS4 and Fast account for 20/50pt.

So there are 25pt left to account for +2 side armour, Serpent Shield, and Skimmer. There are very few weapons that anything even close to a Serpent Shield's 60" Range, Assault 1d6+1, S7, Pinning, and Ignores Cover, so there isn't much to compare to. Ignoring the shield aspect, as a weapon alone this is more powerful than most main weapons on a Leman Russ. An autocannon for a Heavy Weapons Team costs 10pt and gets 2 shots but only 48" range, but it does have AP4. I would probably replace up to 3 autocannons for a Serpent Shield-like attack. So I think 25pt is about enough to cover the Serpent Shield as a weapon.

So this leaves the +2 side armour and Skimmer aspects "over" the expected cost. So I would very vaguely approximate that the Wave Serpent is about 25pt cheaper than one would expect otherwise. Personally, I think the Falcon looks nearly worthless compared to a Wave Serpent. It costs 10pt more, loses 6 transport, loses Serpent Shield, loses Twin-linked for its heavy weapon, but gains a pulse laser. There's some definite internal balance problems there too.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick note: I forgot to take into account Chimera fire-points and lasgun arrays. Those should (in my opinion) swallow up about 10-15pt of the difference.

So maybe the Wave Serpent is only about 10-15pt cheaper than expected.

The Falcon, on the other hand, has got nothing to make up the difference. Not only is it bad compared to the Wave Serpent, but it seems slightly over-costed even compared to other factions. I think they should beef up its armour, like AV 13/12/10.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:


I didn't see the shield getting AP2 in 18" or ap3/4 on your middle range or haywire anywhere. So you are basically saying nerf the wave serpent and not lower the point cost. If that's your view, fine, but please title it "Nerf the Wave Serpent" instead of calling it "balance".

I mean, nerfing it would be the only way to actually make it balanced, as it stands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
I think a lot of the balance issues would be solved by 2 changes:
Replace Ignores Cover with Pinning/Strikedown. Why is it a 60" Ignore cover in the first place?
FAQ it so that it doesn't benefit from the laser lock TL. It should not be getting the buff for being a weapon at the same time as it claims not to be a weapon and thus immune to weapon destroyed.

1. "Why is it a 60" Ignore cover in the first place?" Many days and many nights have a I wondered the same thing.

2. Also, Laser lock alone needs to change. It is the dumbest gak I have seen.

There is a fairly easy way to fix serpent shields and make them more in line with the fluff at the same time.

This is to make them more like a nova power when shot off. They would auto-hit all enemy units within 12" with d3+1 St7 ingores cover, pinning hits.

This makes them still very powerful, yet forces the wave serpent to get close (where its supposed to be since its a troop carrier) and also removes its ridiculous AA capability.

Eihnlazer wrote:
There is a fairly easy way to fix serpent shields and make them more in line with the fluff at the same time.

This is to make them more like a nova power when shot off. They would auto-hit all enemy units within 12" with d3+1 St7 ingores cover, pinning hits.

This makes them still very powerful, yet forces the wave serpent to get close (where its supposed to be since its a troop carrier) and also removes its ridiculous AA capability.

As an occasional Eldar player, my opponents would hate that. 1 hull point left? Charge+go boom. Parking lot? Charge and go boom. MSU or light infantry? Charge and go boom.

I don't view them as transports during a battle. I see them as tanks who drive the kids to the field, drop them off and then use the guns you've paid 100+ points over a rhino for. It's not like my 20 man guardian blobs can be inside when the battle starts anyway. Fire Dragons and Wraith? Sure, but nothing else.

 madric wrote:

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Wes, how many points do you think it's worth?

If something makes a unit OP, I'd like to know how many points people think the OPness is worth, and expect to get those points back if it loses the ability. It is priced at having a shield that flips into a gun, so any nerf needs to bring the price down to be fair, be able to transport multiple units, get an assault ramp or whatever.

If you think the ability is only worth 5 or 10 points it doesn't seem very OP to me and if it is worth 20 or 40 I'd hope to get something worth 20/40 back to as points to spend elsewhere. It may be one of the best transport in the (non-necron) game, but it's also the most fragile and expensive so it needs to fulfill two roles.

This is a fascinating approach to things, and I would like to take a stab at it. I am most familiar with AM, so I will use that as a reference.

At 115pt, the Wave Serpent has Transport 12, BS4, AV 12/12/10, a Twin-linked shuriken catapult (12" Range, Assault 2, S4, AP5, Bladestorm), and a Twin-linked shuriken cannon (24" Range, Assault 3, S6, AP5, Bladestorm), and Serpent Shield, and it is Fast, and a Skimmer.
For comparison, at 65pt, the Chimera has Transport 12, BS3, AV 12/10/10, a heavy bolter (36" Range, Heavy 3, S5, AP4), and a multilaser (36" Range, Heavy 3, S6, AP6).

These vehicles differ in cost by 50pt, let's see if we can account for that.

If I started with a Wave Serpent, I would pay 5pt to get a heavy bolter instead of the twin-linked shuriken catapult, the range is that important. However, I would call the Shuriken Cannon and the Multilaser a draw (range on one side, twin-linked and bladestorm on the other). I'd rather have the Shuriken Cannon, but I don't think I'd pay many points to swap out a Multilaser for one. So the Shuriken weapons account for maybe 5/50 points.

The difference in cost between a Taurox (BS3) and a Taurox Prime (BS4, Fast, Taurox battle cannon) is 30pt, so that gives an upper bound of the cost of upgrading to Fast and BS4. These two upgrades account for under 30/50pt. I think the Taurox Battle cannon is worth 10pt, so let's say the BS4 and Fast account for 20/50pt.

So there are 25pt left to account for +2 side armour, Serpent Shield, and Skimmer. There are very few weapons that anything even close to a Serpent Shield's 60" Range, Assault 1d6+1, S7, Pinning, and Ignores Cover, so there isn't much to compare to. Ignoring the shield aspect, as a weapon alone this is more powerful than most main weapons on a Leman Russ. An autocannon for a Heavy Weapons Team costs 10pt and gets 2 shots but only 48" range, but it does have AP4. I would probably replace up to 3 autocannons for a Serpent Shield-like attack. So I think 25pt is about enough to cover the Serpent Shield as a weapon.

So this leaves the +2 side armour and Skimmer aspects "over" the expected cost. So I would very vaguely approximate that the Wave Serpent is about 25pt cheaper than one would expect otherwise. Personally, I think the Falcon looks nearly worthless compared to a Wave Serpent. It costs 10pt more, loses 6 transport, loses Serpent Shield, loses Twin-linked for its heavy weapon, but gains a pulse laser. There's some definite internal balance problems there too.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick note: I forgot to take into account Chimera fire-points and lasgun arrays. Those should (in my opinion) swallow up about 10-15pt of the difference.

So maybe the Wave Serpent is only about 10-15pt cheaper than expected.

The Falcon, on the other hand, has got nothing to make up the difference. Not only is it bad compared to the Wave Serpent, but it seems slightly over-costed even compared to other factions. I think they should beef up its armour, like AV 13/12/10.

Yes, the Falcon is drek, most people agree on that. I didn't even field them prior to the 6th codex coming out.

I think the rhino is a better base comparison for point values give that it starts at BS4, but your chimera example is reasonable enough. Note that the catapult->cannon upgrade is NOT twinlinked. The main issue with the serpent in theory, IMO, is people assume the shield is up when it gets shot and yet still fired every turn and that the purchased scatter laser always twin links everything and yet it somehow also has a bright lance when AV13/14 is around, etc: Schrodinger's Wave Serpent.

The other issue is that some people take 6 of them loaded with upgrades. If someone is dropping 1,000 point into one choice in a 1500 point game, that choice is obviously going to be responsible for most of your casualties and distort perceptions. If I take 4 land raider redeemers with MM, the flamestorm cannon is going to seem pretty OP too. Wave serpents suck against any competitive fast/DS CC army, just like those redeemers would fall to MM devastators/speeders/sternguard/etc.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Pyromanchis wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The Shield has no business being an anti-tank weapon in any fire mode. What it should do is automatic Pinning or Strikedown or something like that, no damage.

if so, it would not fit the fluff. do you realy thnk pinning a unit in cover is very effecent? i\s not like they are going to move annytime soon anyway.

I don't know what fluff you're reading that has Serpent Shields punching through enemy tanks. It was always a suppression weapon meant to push away enemy troops so the transported unit could disembark safely.

It's a suppression weapon, unfortunately, some tanks are just so weak they happened to be punched through by it.

Not a fluff problem to me, and nothing ever prevented the Eldar from improving their technology either.

Plus you can think of it as an EMP-like effect too. The more hardened the target, the less likely it is to be effected, which dovetails nicely with why Landraiders are completely unaffected.

Its getting old, but that makes no difference towards the relevance of said argument.

The wave serpent is currently underpriced for what it does. However, raising the points cost is not the way to fix it I believe, as it then becomes far too pricey for a dedicated transport.

Just nerf the serpent shield a bit and it becomes a reasonable vehicle.


Honestly its just the amount of str 7 ignores cover that's the problem. Drop the str down to 5 or drop the number of shots and it is far more balanced.

Eihnlazer wrote:
Its getting old, but that makes no difference towards the relevance of said argument.

The wave serpent is currently underpriced for what it does. However, raising the points cost is not the way to fix it I believe, as it then becomes far too pricey for a dedicated transport.

Just nerf the serpent shield a bit and it becomes a reasonable vehicle.


Honestly its just the amount of str 7 ignores cover that's the problem. Drop the str down to 5 or drop the number of shots and it is far more balanced.

If it becomes too pricey for a dedicated transport, than go footslogging - what's the problem. Up the price by 20-30 pts and it's gona be fine.

 koooaei wrote:

If it becomes too pricey for a dedicated transport, than go footslogging - what's the problem. Up the price by 20-30 pts and it's gona be fine.

Seriously.. go play Eldar.

And for the whining about the S6/7 ? sure, it takes down DE vehicles or Rhinos pretty good. Both are cheap and fragile and vulnerable to Heavy Bolters as well.

For everything else, it has no AP.

morgoth wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

If it becomes too pricey for a dedicated transport, than go footslogging - what's the problem. Up the price by 20-30 pts and it's gona be fine.

Seriously.. go play Eldar.

And for the whining about the S6/7 ? sure, it takes down DE vehicles or Rhinos pretty good. Both are cheap and fragile and vulnerable to Heavy Bolters as well.

For everything else, it has no AP.

AP means nothing though, I solely depend on taking out vehicles by stripping off HP.

 Wilson wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

If it becomes too pricey for a dedicated transport, than go footslogging - what's the problem. Up the price by 20-30 pts and it's gona be fine.

Seriously.. go play Eldar.

And for the whining about the S6/7 ? sure, it takes down DE vehicles or Rhinos pretty good. Both are cheap and fragile and vulnerable to Heavy Bolters as well.

For everything else, it has no AP.

AP means nothing though, I solely depend on taking out vehicles by stripping off HP.

Yeah.. AP means nothing. it's not like it helped with the damage table roll, or taking out necrons. or space marines, or ...

I totally agree, nobody cares about AP, and an ignores cover weapon with AP wouldn't be 10 times more effective. for sure.

morgoth wrote:

 Wilson wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

If it becomes too pricey for a dedicated transport, than go footslogging - what's the problem. Up the price by 20-30 pts and it's gona be fine.

Seriously.. go play Eldar.

And for the whining about the S6/7 ? sure, it takes down DE vehicles or Rhinos pretty good. Both are cheap and fragile and vulnerable to Heavy Bolters as well.

For everything else, it has no AP.

AP means nothing though, I solely depend on taking out vehicles by stripping off HP.

Yeah.. AP means nothing. it's not like it helped with the damage table roll, or taking out necrons. or space marines, or ...

I totally agree, nobody cares about AP, and an ignores cover weapon with AP wouldn't be 10 times more effective. for sure.

Why be sarcastic like that?

We are talking about taking out vehicles here where weight of fire beats single shot high AP nearly every time.

example: a Hammerhead with railgun has a 22.2% chance of flat out killing an AV12 vehicle from a single shot while a wave serpent is statically guaranteed to take off 2 HP at least with the shield (if rolled average) and the scatter laser.

AP vs infantry, MC's, cav etc is a whole different topic.

morgoth wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

If it becomes too pricey for a dedicated transport, than go footslogging - what's the problem. Up the price by 20-30 pts and it's gona be fine.

Seriously.. go play Eldar.

And for the whining about the S6/7 ? sure, it takes down DE vehicles or Rhinos pretty good. Both are cheap and fragile and vulnerable to Heavy Bolters as well.

For everything else, it has no AP.

Since S7 is meaningless without AP, I guess you wouldn't mind if every faction except Eldar had its basic rifle upgraded to S7 AP- for free. It's all the same anyway.

My 2 cents:

1. reduce its range to 18".
2. cannot benefit from laser lock.

Job done IMHO

All the rules proposed rules for the serpent shield I've read in this post are worse than how it is now. I don't think it's totally broken as is. My waveserpents rarely do much damage unless they're up against light vehicles.s7 still needs 5s to glance av 12. If you were going to change the wave serpent shield it should be some kind of beam weapon

The overwhelming majority feel the Serpent needs a nerf.

Most feel it needs its shooting toned down.

The most popular method involves dropping range.

Most support seems to put it in the 12-24 range.

If I had the choice, I'd drop the range to 6".

Simple, and changes the Serpent from a gunboat to a support/transport role. Might deserve a point drop for this, but Eldar can make do.

A better, but more involved, solution would be a 12" torrent (heavy 1 of course, but still s7 pinning). Fits the fluff better, and compares more appropriately between hitting vehicles and infantry.

Rx8Speed wrote:
All the rules proposed rules for the serpent shield I've read in this post are worse than how it is now. I don't think it's totally broken as is. My waveserpents rarely do much damage unless they're up against light vehicles.s7 still needs 5s to glance av 12. If you were going to change the wave serpent shield it should be some kind of beam weapon

Only one person here seems to think "balance" and "nerf" are not the same word. Arguing to nerf something is fine, but it is a different topic. If someone is "spamming" them, be greatful they are taking 3 serpents and not the more competitive two WK/riptides for the points.

Only one person bothered to price out what a wave serpent costs and, on doing so, found it was fairly reasonable. My view is it is a rhino stuffed into a kitted out predator (Who plays SM? I do!) and it is priced at about that point the way they are usually taken. They're a lot less scary and a lot less durable (AV12 vs 13 is huge) than the triplas predator which outranges every gun the serpent can buy, much less the vindi if you are operating at the 24" max range of the shuricannon it is always assumed the serpent shoots.

They die to any ten man squad with krak grenandes in a turn and a slightly above average 5 man squad can pop it too. A tactical squad drop podding, moving 6 and combat squadding behind it can toss 2 S6 grenades, and 16 bolter shots. 1.3 S6 hits, 10.6 S4 hits = .67 krak glances bolter 1.8 glances. Add in the slight penetration chance and you've got a 160-175 tank with less than half a hull point. If they jink, they're still taking hits and snap firing. If their on the back of the board, the 160+ point tank isn't meaningfully shooting and still needs to run from a plain old tactical squad, much less anything genuinely scary. If you think the model isn't relatively balanced, look at your army and ask where your fast moving board control anti-tank capable guys are. A 10 man tac squad with plasma gun, plasma cannon, melta bombs and free krak grenades are the same price as a well equipped serpent - cheaper if you swap the PC for a HB to snap fire at good flyer rear AV (or Eldar flyer front AV10 for that matter). Toss in an objective secured drop pod and you can wreck them 1:1 while disrupting the Eldar plan. Kill a serpent then footslog it back to midfield to pick up any objectives needed, or just take the Eldar's while TFC's pummel the disembarked template magnets.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
The overwhelming majority feel the Serpent needs a nerf.
If I had the choice, I'd drop the range to 6".
Simple, and changes the Serpent from a gunboat to a support/transport role. Might deserve a point drop for this, but Eldar can make do.

I think you will find the opinions of people clicking on a "Balance" the wave serpent shield thread are not those of the majority of players overall. What I find remarkable is how the shield is so incredibly valuable/OP a piece of gear but that the drop in points for losing it is inevitably 0 in these threads. Without the shield, the serpent is a little more than a Rhino+1 at 4x the cost.

Bharring wrote:

A better, but more involved, solution would be a 12" torrent (heavy 1 of course, but still s7 pinning). Fits the fluff better, and compares more appropriately between hitting vehicles and infantry.

I imagine that would invoke wailing too, plus the nightspinner(?) has that option. If Eldar could put 10 T3 4+/5+ guys in anything other than a Wave serpent T1, much less had a second (or 3rd!) DT option you'd see more diversity. As it stands, you have Wave Serpents or walk for anything other than a SaimHann jetbike army.

I've been running two of them and no one has complained yet about the shield being OP, really they are good at ONE thing, shooting down light vehicles or side armor in cover. They're not great at shooting anything with a decent armor save. What people actually complain about is the 3+ cover save. Besides the wave serpent is the only tank the eldar can get with real dakka. No one complains about the battle wagons that fire a handful of shots and the the 20 boys who get 40 shots from inside. Personally I would rather have that. Rhinos are like 50pts so really there's no point comparing rhinos and wave serpents. Eldar and Space marines are so different that any comparisons between the two armies are usually irrelevant.