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Greetings all.

Pretty simple question: how do people feel about the vindicare assassin? Is he worth his points, does he pull his weight in battle? I like him on paper but I'm not sure he's as good as I want him to be. I'm thinking from the point of view of my daemons, but any opinions are most welcome!

He's a good scalpel to disable the enemy with. He's probably the best assassin at picking out that warlord +1 vp kill. He can also pick off well equipped champions and sargents easily, hamstringing a number of pricey enemy units. He's also an incredibly reliable way to disable or finish off enemy vehicles. You can get a high percentage penetrating hit, ignoring cover, meaning that you can force any enemy vehicle to snap shoot, which is great versus defilers, wave serpents and other gun boats particularly those with blast or ordnance weapons.

I can't pick one assassin over the others, I'll probably rotate them through for variety and unpredictability.

Trying 2 of them in my next tourament. See how they do.

If the enemy warlord is an IC with an invuln save he is the worst at trying to get that victory point unless the guy is alone and has a single HP left. I can see how he would be useful, but he may be hard pressed to make back his points.

Mavnas wrote:
If the enemy warlord is an IC with an invuln save he is the worst at trying to get that victory point unless the guy is alone and has a single HP left. I can see how he would be useful, but he may be hard pressed to make back his points.

Disagree. You're assuming the other assassins are in combat with the warlord. The other assassins need to survive getting into CC first and requires your opponent to knowingly put his warlord in charge range and not have any other models to accept a challenge. Callidus only precision strikes on 6 to hit I believe. 72" on the vindicare means he can hit the guy anywhere on the table. Shield breaker ignores the warlord's invul save, look out sir is only on a 4+.

And you wound on a 4+. If he didn't have an invuln save you could use the multi wound or poisoned ammo. Instead you have a less than 25% chance to wound an IC with an invuln save. Over 7 turns that's only 1.75 wounds.

Shooting the enemy warlord with a vindecare is only ever worthwhile if he has no invuln or his escorting unit is gone. Taking out a key special weapon is a much surer thing and if you can keep him alive 5-6 specials will make his points back.

He is a good investment. I doubt you will ever feel bad for taking him, though he isn't a power unit for sure. I like him the best, though the psyker killer one is better as a whole.

There's also the Assassin formation which lets you take 3-4 at once. Makes a warlord nervous.

Mavnas wrote:
And you wound on a 4+. If he didn't have an invuln save you could use the multi wound or poisoned ammo. Instead you have a less than 25% chance to wound an IC with an invuln save. Over 7 turns that's only 1.75 wounds.

Shooting the enemy warlord with a vindecare is only ever worthwhile if he has no invuln or his escorting unit is gone. Taking out a key special weapon is a much surer thing and if you can keep him alive 5-6 specials will make his points back.

I really like the Vindicare.
But I do not think you should use it as some anti-Independent Character unit.
Against a 4++ I would probably use the Turbo-penetrator since it has the same expected outcome.
It wounds less often, but if he wounds it are D3 instead of 1.

I would only use my Vindicare against the following stuff:
-Characters with a 5++ or worse.
-Special/Heavy Weapons.
-TH/SS Terminators
-AV<12 vehicles
-Finishing off 'lonely' models like the CCB, Sanguinor, LoW's and MC's.

The Vindicare was never an IC sniper(except for breaking troublesome Invuln saves)

His new incarnation is for sniping weapon upgrades and vehicles. Much like the last version except he's slightly less effective at killing vehicles but has twice the range.

His average AP roll went from 17 to 13.5, but the minimum roll changed from 7 to 11.

So his average went down, but the minimum went up.

The average is a bit meaningless in this case since anything over 15 might as well be 15. I think that actually makes the comparison even better for the new one though.

 Grey Templar wrote:

His average AP roll went from 17 to 13.5, but the minimum roll changed from 7 to 11.

AKA he became a lot more reliable to kill anything other than a Landraider or Lehman Russ from the front.

And he's still not bad at killing AV14.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Vindicare was never an IC sniper(except for breaking troublesome Invuln saves)

His new incarnation is for sniping weapon upgrades and vehicles. Much like the last version except he's slightly less effective at killing vehicles but has twice the range.

His average AP roll went from 17 to 13.5, but the minimum roll changed from 7 to 11.

So his average went down, but the minimum went up.

That sounds nice, until you look at the percentages that accompany those minimum values. The previous incarnation had about a 70% chance to penetrate AV14. Now you are looking at a 33% chance to penetrate. In the end the tank busting skills of the Vindicare have dramatically decreased. On the plus side it now ignores cover saves, but unfortunately the most common skimmer still has the serpent shield to reduce pens to glances resulting in a single hull point.
And with the shield breaker no longer removing the invulnerable save granted by wargear the utility of the Vindicare is reduced as well.
At last the remaining drawback of the Vindicare is that he still requires protection as he is limited to a 4+ invulnerable save. The best option for this is a Bastion. However this increases the cost to use him by 50%.

In the end I say no to the Vindicare, however if you already use a Bastion (or other Fortification) and often face enemies that use tooled up sergeants or other single wound linchpin units than he can be useful.

So he's bad against one particular vehicle and you say he's worthless?

Did you also think the old vindicare was worthless too.

DutchSage wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Vindicare was never an IC sniper(except for breaking troublesome Invuln saves)

His new incarnation is for sniping weapon upgrades and vehicles. Much like the last version except he's slightly less effective at killing vehicles but has twice the range.

His average AP roll went from 17 to 13.5, but the minimum roll changed from 7 to 11.

So his average went down, but the minimum went up.

That sounds nice, until you look at the percentages that accompany those minimum values. The previous incarnation had about a 70% chance to penetrate AV14. Now you are looking at a 33% chance to penetrate. In the end the tank busting skills of the Vindicare have dramatically decreased. On the plus side it now ignores cover saves, but unfortunately the most common skimmer still has the serpent shield to reduce pens to glances resulting in a single hull point.
And with the shield breaker no longer removing the invulnerable save granted by wargear the utility of the Vindicare is reduced as well.
At last the remaining drawback of the Vindicare is that he still requires protection as he is limited to a 4+ invulnerable save. The best option for this is a Bastion. However this increases the cost to use him by 50%.

In the end I say no to the Vindicare, however if you already use a Bastion (or other Fortification) and often face enemies that use tooled up sergeants or other single wound linchpin units than he can be useful.

Important to note, A) if your making him not use the serpent shield, Its worth it. B) If he has multiple serpents, you can pick and choose the ones to shoot (IE, the ones without their shields up)

Indeed. You can ensure that any Serpent who shoots his shield dies for the trouble. Especially with 72" str10 that ignores cover.

Not to mention that you can only snap shot some of them all game, snap shot only others the turn they come in, they can infiltrate 1" away to get side armour shots, etc. Plus the gained a wound each.

They are great units against most other units. They'll kill tanks, reduce look out sirs, ignore invuln, kill psykers, shoot 72" with a rifle, have an AP2 FLAMER on the guy who infiltrates 1" away (ouch) depending on which one(s) you take.

Plus, you can easily kitbash 4 bases and some bits and have another 500 points in 4 models, 4 unit set. Give em a try, see if they plug your holes and fit your style. Think of them as utility tanks vulnerable to instant death from S8 instead of melta gun vehicle damage table results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Indeed. You can ensure that any Serpent who shoots his shield dies for the trouble. Especially with 72" str10 that ignores cover.

Nonsense! Schrodinger's Wave Serpents always have the shield up when being shot, fire at BS4 while jinking and roll 6 on the shield random. They zoom away from assault troops while always having clear line of sight in the hull mounted arc with the rears on the board edge to hide the AV10. They have the always hits twin link scatter laser when firing at anything other than a land raider when it suddenly morphs into a bright lance. It's bought empty at bare hull cost and comes with every upgrade. It's also the only unit on a board which means it can always fly anywhere at anytime with no risk from the only unit brought to fight it.

If the Wave Serpent had to be written down on some sort of list, it would be a fair unit, but Schrodinger's WS exists in quantum flux where it always equipped with the optimal loadout against those who hate it.
/

Back on topic, one of those assassin's can take melta bombs too, the 1" infiltrating one if the guy I played had it right. That'll chase a tank 13" away from you which means it ain't shooting either.

Stripping one hull point is not the same thing as killing a vehicle. Especially now that he only has a 1/6th chance to explode. He's much worse at killing vehicles now, but that's mostly because of the new vehicle damage table rather than changes to the assassin.

I think the other assassins are more likely to make an impact early (then die a grisly death). The Vindecare will counter an army that's dependent on non-IC single wound models without a good invuln save... so umm...

I'm starting to think the potential to cripple a vehicle for a turn may be his best use, but again, it's not great because he wastes his action to potentially shut down the vehicle, but then next turn that vehicle is still there and needs his attention again.

Melta bomb is +2 on the table, so it's a 1:3 to explode it, 4 in six to at least destroy a weapon or immobilize it, etc.

The assassins were the only things alive in my game after T3. All four could only be hit on 6's the first turn, 1 was out of range until my 2xMM speeder came in and the other had the built in invisibility the whole game. Any of them are good, but the formation is really, really good. I won't say under costed at this point, but it's an enormous meta shifter ally for some armies.

If you shoot at them, you are wasting 83% of shots, if you don't they'll kill at least a tank a turn with side shots. Think about an AP1 flamer infiltrating against your honor guard or biker squad. They can overwatch at BS8, attack at i8 and have 3/4-7 attacks depending on if they get the charge. Even if you deploy to negate some risks as I did, that still breaks up your own plans and lets the assassins dictate the engagement terms more.

RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
Melta bomb is +2 on the table, so it's a 1:3 to explode it, 4 in six to at least destroy a weapon or immobilize it, etc.

The assassins were the only things alive in my game after T3. All four could only be hit on 6's the first turn, 1 was out of range until my 2xMM speeder came in and the other had the built in invisibility the whole game. Any of them are good, but the formation is really, really good. I won't say under costed at this point, but it's an enormous meta shifter ally for some armies.

If you shoot at them, you are wasting 83% of shots, if you don't they'll kill at least a tank a turn with side shots. Think about an AP1 flamer infiltrating against your honor guard or biker squad. They can overwatch at BS8, attack at i8 and have 3/4-7 attacks depending on if they get the charge. Even if you deploy to negate some risks as I did, that still breaks up your own plans and lets the assassins dictate the engagement terms more.

they dont have melta bombs

Eversor does.
The guys are little terrors.

However, why are 83% of shots are wasted? Etherium is unique to the culexus, and even than its not wasting nearly as much, as rolls that have missed anyway are not wasted.
A BS2 guy only "wastes" half his shots, a BS3 wastes 66% and BS4 wastes 75%. even BS5 waste only 80%, you need to be BS10 for it to be 83% "wasted"

RAWR is making a mess with the assassins, mixing them with each other in descriptions and making it impossible to understand what assassin he means at any point.
A smart move is to realize that each assassin is a unique unit and they do not in fact make a "group" other then thematically. they are NOT one unit with alternating options, but four separate units.

About sniping characters inside units

You can only do this if you roll a 6 to hit , yes no?

You cant simply allocate the wound on him.
Am i wrong?

Vindicare can freely allocate any hits. that's kina his thing.

 lord limenix wrote:

About sniping characters inside units

You can only do this if you roll a 6 to hit , yes no?

You cant simply allocate the wound on him.
Am i wrong?

Vindicares make all of their hits precision shots

IMO the Vindicare is a very useful addition to many lists. Surgical removal of champions/sergeants etc. can be pretty powerful. Just think of sniping the one model with meltabombs and then having your Walker charge the unit. Many good players also reposition multi-wound models every turn to minimise losses. A Vindicare can snipe off midels that would hit or shoot for one or two more turns otherwise.

Callidus can be a nuisance in the backfield that is hard to remove. This can help in a situation where your opponent wants to push forward. And in Maelstrom times your opponent wants this more often than not. The Callidus then either makes his points by buying you time to get your Objectives or by removing models relatively unharmed.

Culexus is really strong vs. Psykers. Other that that he's useless, but in the current meta (invisibility...) you will have this problem only vs. Necrons and Tau I guess. Cancelling invisibility is a very very strong tool. Forcing a peril is also pretty strong.

 Murenius wrote:
IMO the Vindicare is a very useful addition to many lists. Surgical removal of champions/sergeants etc. can be pretty powerful. Just think of sniping the one model with meltabombs and then having your Walker charge the unit. Many good players also reposition multi-wound models every turn to minimise losses. A Vindicare can snipe off midels that would hit or shoot for one or two more turns otherwise.

Callidus can be a nuisance in the backfield that is hard to remove. This can help in a situation where your opponent wants to push forward. And in Maelstrom times your opponent wants this more often than not. The Callidus then either makes his points by buying you time to get your Objectives or by removing models relatively unharmed.

Culexus is really strong vs. Psykers. Other that that he's useless, but in the current meta (invisibility...) you will have this problem only vs. Necrons and Tau I guess. Cancelling invisibility is a very very strong tool. Forcing a peril is also pretty strong.

I'm considering the culexus for tac lists, the good thing is that he's still beastly in close combat against Tau. And Necrons will only hit him on 5+ in combat. Insta death on 6s also makes him good against multi wound units. And etherium makes it hard for shooty armies like Necrons and Tau to kill him. Though I'm not sure how etherium stacks with marker lights.

 TheSilo wrote:

I'm considering the culexus for tac lists, the good thing is that he's still beastly in close combat against Tau. And Necrons will only hit him on 5+ in combat. Insta death on 6s also makes him good against multi wound units. And ether oil makes it hard for shooty armies like Necrons and Tau to kill him. Though I'm not sure how ether jump stacks with marker lights.

Good point, I didn't think of that. It even more makes him viable for tac. Removing invisibility (or any other buff or malediction), blocking psy and insta death on all attacks against psykers is extremely reliable psy removal. I still have to playtest how well it can be delivered reliably, though. I think in a deep striking army or a fast one it will be reliable, while I don't see many uses in a shootout. However, with Maelstrom the times of 6th edition shootouts are over, I guess.

I must say I really love the new assassins rules.

The vindicare has been completely change from his previous incarnation. His previous form was a 1 shot wonder. He would get 1 extremely powerful shot off and then would die as he had to be within 36" of the target. It was very rare for him to survive past his first shot against essentially any competent opponent, and often he never got that shot unless you invested heavily in protecting him. Now the vindicare can engage the enemy from anywhere on the board making him vastly harder to kill. His new shots are mediocre against AV14, MC w/ good invulnerable saves, and IC. However being able to pick off squad leaders and weapon upgrades can largely invalidate a unit. Imagine a CCS without the commander...or a boyz mob without a PK...yeah, those units pretty much exist just for the weapon/character in it and killing that upgrade is almost as good as killing the unit. The vindicare is also nice for messing with waveserpents. Really think about a waveserpent, how often does a player not shoot the shield? Unless they jink the shield will be shot almost constantly meaning the vindicare is doing good damage. The vindicare is also reasonably effective at knocking wounds off the wraithknights and killing the key warlocks out from a seer council (ie get rid of the Protect). These kills can really rack up. Also keep in mind that a bastion was almost a requisite of getting a vindicare into the 6ed lists. Now with his ignores cover on all his shots you can get a quadd gun for him to shoot at oncoming flyers and waveserpents with shields up. This makes him pretty effective against flyers.