Daemonic instability and pelt of the bale wolf

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**warhawkstriker**

Had this come up during a game today, wolf lord with the pelt was in combat with nurgle plague drones, daemonic instability says they always pass, and the pelt says they auto fail. We couldn't decide so we rolled off for it, but I was wondering what other peoples thoughts are on this.

**JinxDragon**

Think I have overlooked this pelt, but still a curious premise... what happens when a Must Fail encounters a Must Pass and both are 'Codex advanced....'
Can I answer quantum singularities are formed?

**Hansisaf**

Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object

**CrownAxe**

I can't find the rules for this "pelt" in the codex. What are you talking about and where is it I want to look up its specific wording.

**warhawkstriker**

it is in the champions of fenris supplement, it is a relic that gives the model fearless, and all beast, cavalry and monstrous creatures automatically fain any fear test they must take against him. excluding fearless and ATSKNF

**BlackTalos**

Only going by logic here:
Does Daemonic Instability give them Fearless?
If it does not, how do they auto-pass a Fear Test?

(where my guess answers would be:
- No otherwise you would not be asking "excluding fearless and ATSKNF "
- they are not Fearless, so would fail a Fear test.)

**CrownAxe**

Daemonic Instability specifically says "they auto pass morale, pinning, and fear checks"

**Udo**

Daemons don't take fear tests because they auto pass, they take daemonic instability tests if they lose a combat, which are brutal enough. So what are you supposed to make them fail a fear test and cop daemonic instability at the same time?

I'm a daemons player and would be super peeved if someone tried to make me fail a fear test.

**BlackTalos**

CrownAxe wrote:
Daemonic Instability specifically says "they auto pass morale, pinning, and fear checks"

I see, so i retract my earlier logic and will have to see the wording for the pelt of the bale wolf to comment any further.
Also, again assuming from comments, the model with the Pelt has the Fear special rule? (If he doesn't, then the Daemons would not have to test in the first place...)

**Barrogh**

Udo wrote:
Daemons don't take fear tests because they auto pass...

I wouldn't say it works like that. Sure, you don't have to roll, but can't we say that test is called upon and happens anyways, just always succeed, which we point out at the next stage?

I'm asking because unless it's not true it means that test is called upon, but then we find out that we must both auto-pass and auto-fail it due to different rules involved.

Unless we can find a better answer, it may be played calling a coin toss every time the situation arises.

As to rolling for instability, well, I know little on daemon mech, but it doesn't look like there is some weird interaction with things in question...

**JinxDragon**

Indeed, to automatically pass a test there still needs to be a test.

**Grey Templar**

In this case the rules break because we aren't given an out anywhere saying what happens when one thing says auto-pass and another says auto-fail.

I think the fairest resolution till it gets FAQ'd would be to have the Daemons take a normal fear test, with the auto-pass and auto-fail canceling each other out. So just a LD test with normal consequences.

**Convictus**

Just to double check - Fear in 40k does not work like it does in Fantasy, where fear-causing creatures do not need to test for fear, correct?

**Grey Templar**

Correct.

"Note that a model that causes Fear is not itself immune to Fear, and will still need to take a Fear test if it is in base contact with any enemy models that cause Fear" - P163

**Big Blind Bill**

If you are going off RAW, then daemons still take fear checks, pinning and morale checks as per the daemonic instability special rule, however they will always pass.
(The rule states "auto pass" as opposed to ignore, or are immune to).

With the case of the wolf-thing, the rules don't cover it as each rule cancels each other out. House rule it until an FAQ.

Personally I'd go with daemons ignoring it, as for all intents and purposes that's what they do with every other morale test in the game. It also fits the fluff, Daemons don't do emotions like living creatures.

**broo**

I'd agree that the daemons ignore the test. No roll is ever required to pass the test. if a roll was required then maybe there is a debate. However, that's not the case.

**JinxDragon**

Broo,
How are you auto-passing a test if the test is never taken to begin with?

**DeathReaper**

So this is Schrodinger's Leadership test?

The rules do not seem to cover what happens, so I guess you would have to work it out with your opponent or roll to see which interpretation works for that game, until there is an FAQ, if ever.

**JinxDragon**

It really is laughable though, of the conflicts not to see coming.
That is the real question... how did we go so long before we encountered a 'auto-pass' and 'auto-failure' in the same situation?

**Eihnlazer**

Either do what was proposed earlier and take have to 2 rules cancel each other out by just rolling normally for a fear test, or roll off for it.

**LoH**

JinxDragon wrote:
It really is laughable though, of the conflicts not to see coming.
That is the real question... how did we go so long before we encountered a 'auto-pass' and 'auto-failure' in the same situation?

They covered the most common cases (fearless and ATSKNF), so that's something.

Unfortunately, there's some other cases where this interaction comes into play, specifically Ork Mob Rule. Summary Execution, so far as I can tell, can't come into play (if the pelt only affects beast/cav/MC).

For what it's worth and looking at how it's written, I'd say anyone who would otherwise auto-pass Fear checks would still auto-pass.

**Fragile**

LoH wrote:

For what it's worth and looking at how it's written, I'd say anyone who would otherwise auto-pass Fear checks would still auto-pass.

Pretty much this for HIWPI. The intent is obvious with the examples they gave. They just didn't follow through far enough.

**BlackTalos**

Reading the Fluff and Rule i am not too sure anymore...

I would say 50/50 or even lean towards saying anyone who would otherwise auto-pass Fear checks would auto-fail if they are not ATSKNF or Fearless.

Spoiler:

**JinxDragon**

Thanks Blacktalos for the Rule posting,
Sometimes I wish there was a real 'priority order' for Rules, instead of this three tier system found in Basic vs Advanced, as it is never nice when two Codex Rules clash. It doesn't see as much of a case now we have a good look at the Rule in question, and see exactly how it is written. In a general principal of Specific vs General I would side with the belt being the more dominate of the Rules, because it mentions two specific Rules which can overwrite it. By extension, any Rules which are not mention are then hit with an additional Restriction of not being able to be evoked to do something other then Auto-fail.

Quite a nice belt, I must look at this supplement even though I don't tend to like Marines.

**ClassicCarraway**

For a conflict such as this, I would play it as whoever's turn it is has priority. On SW turns, daemons fail fear. On daemon turns, daemons auto pass.

**DeathReaper**

Due to the wording of Pelt of Balewolf, which specifically calls out ATSKNFand Fearless, and since it does not mention DI, I would say that they would auto fail the test.

**Sinny!**

^This was my thoughts Exactly

**Aijec**

DeathReaper wrote:
Due to the wording of Pelt of Balewolf, which specifically calls out ATSKNFand Fearless, and since it does not mention DI, I would say that they would auto fail the test.

This is based off nothing though.

I know some have mentioned ATSKNF being cited in the rule as a precedent FOR them wanting auto-pass models not being affected but that can easily be argued the other way. Because they've gone so far in mentioning special rules we can assume they are aware of instability and chose not to mention it.

The reality is there is no ruling for this and a roll-off would be needed.

I could also see TO's ruling in favor of instability just because it's far more widespread and "DAEMUNZ JUST DON'T RUN". I want to mention also that Daemons DO feel emotions and there examples of space marines being feared.

**Ghaz**

Almost a year old...

**Alpharius**

Old...so old...