Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Seperation of church and state and all of that, but this is the way the team chose to honor their fallen friends:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/09/11/football-team-forced-to-remove-christian-crosses-from-helmets/

Getting closer to midterms...

Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

 purplefood wrote:
Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

Private schools are private, state schools are run by the government with staff that are government employees and with equipment that is purchased by the state (football uniforms included).

 d-usa wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

Private schools are private, state schools are run by the government with staff that are government employees and with equipment that is purchased by the state (football uniforms included).

So...
Why does everyone have to pay out of the arse to go to college?
I get that private schools can do whatever they like because 'Murica etc etc
Am I missing something here?

feth these people. This "freedom from religion" group is one that i can't stand.

 purplefood wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

Private schools are private, state schools are run by the government with staff that are government employees and with equipment that is purchased by the state (football uniforms included).

So...
Why does everyone have to pay out of the arse to go to college?
I get that private schools can do whatever they like because 'Murica etc etc
Am I missing something here?

State funded schools are some of the cheapest (and most cost effective) educations on the entire planet.

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

Private schools are private, state schools are run by the government with staff that are government employees and with equipment that is purchased by the state (football uniforms included).

So...
Why does everyone have to pay out of the arse to go to college?
I get that private schools can do whatever they like because 'Murica etc etc
Am I missing something here?

State funded schools are some of the cheapest (and most cost effective) educations on the entire planet.

Nearly $10k if you're in state still isn't "cheap."

 cincydooley wrote:


Nearly $10k if you're in state still isn't "cheap."

For college? It sure the feth is. You're not going to find many programs that are cheaper and not complete trash. Penn State is considered one of the best schools in the US and tuition is $11k. $11k for one of the best educations in America.

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

Private schools are private, state schools are run by the government with staff that are government employees and with equipment that is purchased by the state (football uniforms included).

So...
Why does everyone have to pay out of the arse to go to college?
I get that private schools can do whatever they like because 'Murica etc etc
Am I missing something here?

State funded schools are some of the cheapest (and most cost effective) educations on the entire planet.

Goodo then.
So they are government funded and government run. Are they still a part of the government?
I can see why you would deny them the right to wear a cross... not sure why anyone would bother though. Oh hey! They could all get tattoo's! That'll show them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:


Nearly $10k if you're in state still isn't "cheap."

For college? It sure the feth is. You're not going to find many programs that are cheaper and not complete trash. Penn State is considered one of the best schools in the US and tuition is $11k. $11k for one of the best educations in America.

11k a year or 11k a term? (Semester?)

 purplefood wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

Private schools are private, state schools are run by the government with staff that are government employees and with equipment that is purchased by the state (football uniforms included).

So...
Why does everyone have to pay out of the arse to go to college?

It's this little thing we invented called freedom. Maybe you'd know a bit more about if you weren't living in France.

Sigh...

Aside from the deliberately misleading headline, the article was halfway decent until the end... the ridiculous "Christians are under attack!" meme crept in and ruined the whole thing.

There are a couple of things to take away from this article. First, the AD was advised to remove the crosses by the legal council, not forced to do so. The other thing of note is that the whole situation started from a letter an attorney in Jonesboro, not the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which the author claimed was "attacking" the AD.

 cincydooley wrote:
feth these people. This "freedom from religion" group is one that i can't stand.

The "Christians are under attack in this country!" is one group of people I can't stand. Feth those people.

Seriously, no one is under attack here. The crosses were voluntarily removed and there is no legal action pending. This all stemmed from one email from a douchbag attorney, so let's pump the brakes on the moral outrage for a minute.

 purplefood wrote:
Are they still a part of the government?

They're state owned and the employees are state employees, but they effectively run themselves (what they get is significant subsidies from the states for the purpose of keeping tuition low). Some systems like University of Texas and PASSHE are considered to rival the Ivy League in terms of quality. It's why admissions are so fierce for public schools. They have fairly low entrance requirements, are cheap, and offer good programs.

Really, its the part of US government education we can take pride in.

 d-usa wrote:
Getting closer to midterms...

Exactly!

 purplefood wrote:

11k a year or 11k a term? (Semester?)

Semester (for the liberal arts program, some campuses and programs can cost more like Pre-Med).

 LordofHats wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:


Nearly $10k if you're in state still isn't "cheap."

For college? It sure the feth is. You're not going to find many programs that are cheaper and not complete trash. Penn State is considered one of the best schools in the US and tuition is $11k. $11k for one of the best educations in America.

$11k, no matter how you cut it, isn't "cheap." And that's predicated on you living in state. It's $30k If you're not from Pennsylvania.

 Chongara wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Are colleges not somewhat independent of the state/government in the US?

Private schools are private, state schools are run by the government with staff that are government employees and with equipment that is purchased by the state (football uniforms included).

So...
Why does everyone have to pay out of the arse to go to college?

It's this little thing we invented called freedom. Maybe you'd know a bit more about if you weren't living in France.

I like you Chongara which is why i'm not gonna be starting anything over that little comment.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Are they still a part of the government?

They're state owned and the employees are state employees, but they effectively run themselves (what they get is significant subsidies from the states for the purpose of keeping tuition low). Some systems like University of Texas and PASSHE are considered to rival the Ivy League in terms of quality. It's why admissions are so fierce for public schools. They have fairly low entrance requirements, are cheap, and offer good programs.

Really, its the part of US government education we can take pride in.

Right, so they are state schools. Cool.
Seems legit if you ask me, bit of a dim thing to raise a fuss about. Just change it to something else or do it anyway...

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

11k a year or 11k a term? (Semester?)

Semester

That is pricey, but then prices have changed since I went. You used to be able to do a year for less than 10k at a State University if you were from that state and grades were good. Out of state tuition is a whole separate thing.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Sigh...

Aside from the deliberately misleading headline, the article was halfway decent until the end... the ridiculous "Christians are under attack!" meme crept in and ruined the whole thing.

There are a couple of things to take away from this article. First, the AD was advised to remove the crosses by the legal council, not forced to do so. The other thing of note is that the whole situation started from a letter an attorney in Jonesboro, not the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which the author claimed was "attacking" the AD.

 cincydooley wrote:
feth these people. This "freedom from religion" group is one that i can't stand.

The "Christians are under attack in this country!" is one group of people I can't stand. Feth those people.

Seriously, no one is under attack here. The crosses were voluntarily removed and there is no legal action pending. This all stemmed from one email from a douchbag attorney, so let's pump the brakes on the moral outrage for a minute.

I never proclaimed "the Christians are under attack." This should have never been an issue in the first fething place.

I'm aware that the freedom from religion douchebags didn't send the letter. But the fact that they feel like they need to put their "seal of approval" on it makes me want to punch. Yes, I think they can go feth themselves. They're about as palatable to me as the Westboro Baptist fethers.

 cincydooley wrote:


$11k, no matter how you cut it, isn't "cheap."

Yeah, it's not cheap as in its not a $5 wallet, but good luck finding a good education for less than that. Go on

It's one thing to complain about how college tuition rates are climbing in an unrealistic way, but it's another to just ignore comparison and claim that a $11k college tuition is expensive. That's like calling a $8000 car expensive. Duh, it's a car. It's not bought for pennies

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

11k a year or 11k a term? (Semester?)

Semester (for the liberal arts program, some campuses and programs can cost more like Pre-Med).

That's like...
My entire 3 years in one go. Well it's pricey but I guess it's worth it.
What are the loans like by the way?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Sigh...

Aside from the deliberately misleading headline, the article was halfway decent until the end... the ridiculous "Christians are under attack!" meme crept in and ruined the whole thing.

There are a couple of things to take away from this article. First, the AD was advised to remove the crosses by the legal council, not forced to do so. The other thing of note is that the whole situation started from a letter an attorney in Jonesboro, not the Freedom From Religion Foundation, which the author claimed was "attacking" the AD.

 cincydooley wrote:
feth these people. This "freedom from religion" group is one that i can't stand.

The "Christians are under attack in this country!" is one group of people I can't stand. Feth those people.

Seriously, no one is under attack here. The crosses were voluntarily removed and there is no legal action pending. This all stemmed from one email from a douchbag attorney, so let's pump the brakes on the moral outrage for a minute.

There was well founded fear of a lawsuit draining school resources that forced the issue, and the freedom from religion group indeed got into the act.

 Ahtman wrote:


That is pricey, but then prices have changed since I went. You used to be able to do a year for less than 10k at a State University if you were from that state and grades were good. Out of state tuition is a whole separate thing.

I get the concept of out of state tuition. Those government subsidies are paid by state tax, if you aren't paying state tax you didn't pay into the system like tax payers did. But jumping from 11k to 30k is silly (Reality is even 30k at this point is below average for a college education). I doubt it'll go away though. Fortunately, I had the GI Bill, so I got to keep in state tuition even after my dad was restationed out of PA


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 purplefood wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

11k a year or 11k a term? (Semester?)

Semester (for the liberal arts program, some campuses and programs can cost more like Pre-Med).

That's like...
My entire 3 years in one go. Well it's pricey but I guess it's worth it.
What are the loans like by the way?

I honestly wouldn't know (*High fives George Bush* "Thanks for that 2002 GI bill reform bro *gets thumbs up from Bush*).

 Ahtman wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

11k a year or 11k a term? (Semester?)

Semester

That is pricey, but then prices have changed since I went. You used to be able to do a year for less than 10k at a State University if you were from that state and grades were good. Out of state tuition is a whole separate thing.

You can still go to a lot of state schools in Ohio for around 10k or maybe a bit less (for tuition and fees that is, not living expenses). The state schools in Ohio are quite good too. I think Miami (in Ohio) is more expensive though, but they like to pretend like they're a private school.


To be honest, except for the Ivy League or certain schools with very good programs in specific subjects, I don't know why so many people would pay all that money (and go into debt) to go to a private university. Several of the students I met in grad school graduated from expensive private schools for their undergrad that cost probably 4x or more what it cost at a public school, and it seemed like their educations were horrible, at least in the sense that they were woefully unprepared for grad school.

I'm certainly not saying all private schools are bad, I just don't see how many of them are worth 4x the cost or more of a public school.

 cincydooley wrote:
I never proclaimed "the Christians are under attack."

I never said you did. I just complaining about people I dislike, much like you were. No need to take it personal.

This should have never been an issue in the first fething place.

You're right.

If the school's legal council thought it was going to be a problem, they should have handled it in-house, instead of essentially crying wolf and making a big deal about nothing.

I'm aware that the freedom from religion douchebags didn't send the letter. But the fact that they feel like they need to put their "seal of approval" on it makes me want to punch. Yes, I think they can go feth themselves. They're about as palatable to me as the Westboro Baptist fethers.

They only sent a letter because a couple of crybabies from the athletic department purposely made a big stink about a non-issue to get attention. It worked; you're angry at a group of people who had nothing to do with the issue, so you played right in to the hands of the author and the AD.

Relapse wrote:
There was well founded fear of a lawsuit draining school resources that forced the issue, and the freedom from religion group indeed got into the act.

No there isn't. The legal council themselves said that there no specific court cases regarding the wearing of a cross on a college football helmet.

The FFRF sent a letter after the AD made a big stink about what the school wanted him to do. They had nothing to do with the original issue.

None of this changes the fact that the douchebag attorney that sent the letter that started all of this wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court, Establishment Clause and all. It is pretty clear that the decal is a personal memorial done by the players and is not endorsed or mandated by the school. In reality, it is no different than wearing a cross necklace or having a cross tattoo plainly visible. The only issue that could arise is if the school payed for the decals, and it doesn't seem like that is the case (but I was unable to find that information so take it with a grain of salt).

Again, let's pump the breaks on the moral outrage and think critically for a second.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
I never proclaimed "the Christians are under attack."

I never said you did. I just complaining about people I dislike, much like you were. No need to take it personal.

This should have never been an issue in the first fething place.

You're right.

If the school's legal council thought it was going to be a problem, they should have handled it in-house, instead of essentially crying wolf and making a big deal about nothing.

I'm aware that the freedom from religion douchebags didn't send the letter. But the fact that they feel like they need to put their "seal of approval" on it makes me want to punch. Yes, I think they can go feth themselves. They're about as palatable to me as the Westboro Baptist fethers.

They only sent a letter because a couple of crybabies from the athletic department purposely made a big stink about a non-issue to get attention. It worked; you're angry at a group of people who had nothing to do with the issue, so you played right in to the hands of the author and the AD.

Relapse wrote:
There was well founded fear of a lawsuit draining school resources that forced the issue, and the freedom from religion group indeed got into the act.

No there isn't. The legal council themselves said that there no specific court cases regarding the wearing of a cross on a college football helmet.

The FFRF sent a letter after the AD made a big stink about what the school wanted him to do. They had nothing to do with the original issue.

None of this changes the fact that the douchebag attorney that sent the letter that started all of this wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court, Establishment Clause and all. It is pretty clear that the decal is a personal memorial done by the players and is not endorsed or mandated by the school. In reality, it is no different than wearing a cross necklace or having a cross tattoo plainly visible. The only issue that could arise is if the school payed for the decals, and it doesn't seem like that is the case (but I was unable to find that information so take it with a grain of salt).

Again, let's pump the breaks on the moral outrage and think critically for a second.

With all of the other court cases that have gone on, I would disagree.

 Hordini wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 purplefood wrote:

11k a year or 11k a term? (Semester?)

Semester

That is pricey, but then prices have changed since I went. You used to be able to do a year for less than 10k at a State University if you were from that state and grades were good. Out of state tuition is a whole separate thing.

You can still go to a lot of state schools in Ohio for around 10k or maybe a bit less (for tuition and fees that is, not living expenses). The state schools in Ohio are quite good too. I think Miami (in Ohio) is more expensive though, but they like to pretend like they're a private school.


To be honest, except for the Ivy League or certain schools with very good programs in specific subjects, I don't know why so many people would pay all that money (and go into debt) to go to a private university. Several of the students I met in grad school graduated from expensive private schools for their undergrad that cost probably 4x or more what it cost at a public school, and it seemed like their educations were horrible, at least in the sense that they were woefully unprepared for grad school.

I'm certainly not saying all private schools are bad, I just don't see how many of them are worth 4x the cost or more of a public school.

I went to a woefully expensive private liberal arts school in Ohio and I do believe the quality of education i received there was higher than normal. I only say this having taken classes at UC and Dayton as well, and my undergrad classes were better. Less so in UDs case, but certainly so with UC.

Having said that, I'm still pretty convinced they were all overpriced and questionably worth it.

Relapse wrote:
With all of the other court cases that have gone on, I would disagree.

Sources?

The courts (both the Supreme Court and lower courts) are fairly balanced when it comes to rightfully disallowing state-sanctioned religious displays (in accordance with the Establishment Clause) and rightfully allowing private religious speech in a public forum (which is protected by the First Amendment). I think it is pretty clear that this case would fall under the latter.

However, like previously noted by the legal council, there isn't any precedent to go by when it comes to football helmets.

Ugh, feth all that noise.

I'm going to a 2-year community college, then I'll transfer from there to the cheapest 4-year I can find to finish out my degree. lol

I'm looking at University of Hawaii atm. They have a special program for California residents and a few other states that sets their tuition at only 1.5 times the in-state tuition, instead of double for normal out-of-state shenanigans. So I'm looking at ~ $7000 per semester there.

Even that makes my buttcheeks clench in abject horror- but I'll take being $28,000 in debt over like, 60 lol.

The decal is a pain in the rear in two ways, either it was:

1) School Sponsored: Yes students liked the idea and supported it. But it also had the involvement of the coaching staff (which are state employees) and it was sanctioned by the AD (also a state employee). So State employees decided to place a religious symbol on a state purchased uniform. This would be the state endorsing a religion and a no-go.

2) It was entirely student sponsored: If you want to pretend that the school staff had nothing to do with any of this and argue that it was all student based and that every student participated voluntarily. Great, but now you opened a giant pandora box. You let these students affix a religious symbol on their uniform. Is there a policy regarding this religious symbols on their uniform? Is there a policy that states that uniforms cannot be modified? Will you write a new policy that says "every student gets X square inches on their helmet for personal decoration"? Next year when a student wants to affix a decal with another religious symbol (Islam, Satanism, Pastafarianism) will you allow them the same freedom?

It's either a state sponsored religious decal, or it's a random free epxression of students (which probably violates a school policy if this program is like others I know and doesn't actually allow you put random stickers on your helmet) that will open a giant pandoras box unless you shut it down quickly.