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Alright! After I think 10 minutes of arguing this, I figured Dakka would know what's up.


Check it, you have to have a commander (Master, Chap., or Librarian) to run a command squad?

I'm just sorta confused with the whole TEXT ( Inderpendent Characters in Terminator armour may NOT lead a Command squad, they may join it during the course of play, however.) reads Codex: Space Marines.

Is it stating that you may have a 2 Independent Characters in the same squad  (Being it that another came with the command squad)?
OR

Is it saying you can throw a Captain in Terminator armour and take a Command squad, but they don't have to fight along eachother?

OR

If the Independent Character (Leading the Command squad) died during the course of play the other can take charge?


Thanks

Check it, you have to have a commander (Master, Chap., or Librarian) to run a command squad?

Yes. That's what the command squad is for.

I'm just sorta confused with the whole TEXT ( Inderpendent Characters in Terminator armour may NOT lead a Command squad, they may join it during the course of play, however.) reads Codex: Space Marines.

It simply means that you can not take a power armoured Command Squad to accompany a character in Terminator Armour. If you want a Command Squad for a Terminator character, it has to be a Terminator Command Squad.

Actually, I see no text that insists you have an IC to have a command squad. It's obviously intended, but that's not the way they worded it. You could, technically, take just a command squad with no IC as an HQ choice.

Actually it does. From page 29 of Codex Space Marines:

You may take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain.

That tells me that if I take a Command Squad, it is taken to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain. It is not taken as a standalone unit.

Actually, it does not.

The quote says that you may take a command squad to accompany an HQ character. It states nothing, positively or negatively, about the command squad being used on its own.

The "command squad on its own" argument is based on the fact that the command squad is listed as a seperate independent HQ choice, and that there are no rules explicitly stating that you cannot use it by itself.

Yes, it does. How may you take a Command Squad? You may take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain. Where does it say you can take a Command Squad as a standalone unit?

Where does it say that you can take a Tactical Squad as a stand alone unit?

Nowhere. Its very presence in the Codex as a unit type allows you to take it.

Similarly, the command squad exists in the Codex as a unit type without any restrictions. Its presence makes it a valid HQ choice.


The only quote on the subject is:
"You may take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain."

The quote does not say:
"You may ONLY take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain."

You can take a Tactical Squad as a standalone unit because it has no restrictions on it. The Command Squad does. What are the Command Squad's restrictions? That it accompany a Commander, Chaplain or Librarian. That's why they tell you that you MAY take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Chaplain or Librarian because you MAY NOT take a Command Squad any other way.

They don't have to use the word 'only' because of the very nature of the rules. If it's not specifically permitted, then it can not be done. They've specifically permitted the Comand Squad to accompany a Commander, Chaplain or Librarian. Where have they specifically permitted you to take a Command Squad as a standalone unit?

Its just a difference in how we are reading the line.

You see it as "may only" and I see it as "may also".


I don't see it as a restriction, I see it as an optional way in which to field the unit.

You are correct when you say "If it's not specifically permitted, then it can not be done."
However, the simple inclusion of the unit as an HQ choice is all of the permission that you need to field the unit. You are permitted to field it, the addition quote simply tells you an additional way in which to field the unit.

None of this really matters though, as I also believe the intent was to only field command squads along side a character.

Ghaz, you're in the wrong here. Most of us assume that's what GW MEANT, but it's certainly not what they wrote.

I still like the fact that some GT judges ruled that you can have 6 characters in 2 command squads and be legal. Anybody want 2 Chapter Masters? These people can be so slowed.

I still like the fact that some GT judges ruled that you can have 6 characters in 2 command squads and be legal. Anybody want 2 Chapter Masters? These people can be so slowed

Venerable MegaDave, your post leaves me confused: which is slowed: GW, the judges, or the players?

Posted By MegaDave on 04/20/2006 5:30 PM
I still like the fact that some GT judges ruled that you can have 6 characters in 2 command squads and be legal. Anybody want 2 Chapter Masters? These people can be so slowed.

Considering that it IS legal, what's the beef?

Posted By Mannahnin on 04/20/2006 2:33 PM
Ghaz, you're in the wrong here. Most of us assume that's what GW MEANT, but it's certainly not what they wrote.

And again, it is what they wrote.  The subject of the sentence is the Command Squad, not the Independent Character.  It tells you when you may take a Command Squad.  When may you take a Comand Squad?  You may take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain.

Posted by blue loki on 04/20/2006 11:45 AM
Its just a difference in how we are reading the line.

You see it as "may only" and I see it as "may also".

Except the rules don't work that way.  By your reading, I could do anything that the rules don't forbid.

Posted by blue loki on 04/20/2006 11:45 AM
However, the simple inclusion of the unit as an HQ choice is all of the permission that you need to field the unit. You are permitted to field it, the addition quote simply tells you an additional way in which to field the unit.

No, because the line in question places a restriction on how the unit can be fielded, just like a '0-1' or a '1+' changes how you can filed one of those units.  The restriction is that the unit is fielded to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain and not as a standalone unit.

 

Ghaz, politely: your reading comprehension skills suck. (at least on this issue).

No idea how to put it more gently than that, but the rules simply don't say any of what you claim they say. They almost say it and should say it, but don't actually say it.

If you like, I throw out a few premises and a conclusion and show that a command squad is a legal HQ choice, but it's awefully self explainatory.

Posted By skyth on 04/20/2006 8:11 PM

Posted By MegaDave on 04/20/2006 5:30 PM
I still like the fact that some GT judges ruled that you can have 6 characters in 2 command squads and be legal. Anybody want 2 Chapter Masters? These people can be so slowed.

Considering that it IS legal, what's the beef?

No offense MegaDave, but Skyth is absolutely correct, and the Codex is incredibly clear on the subject. Check the section in the Codex about Characters which appears on the same page as the Drop Pod special rules.

You can have a maximum of 2 HQ squads, each consisting of one Master, one Chaplain, one Librarian, and the command squad retinue.

Thats 12 models per squad. Its incredibly expensive, but legal.

Posted By blue loki on 04/21/2006 7:30 AM

 

You can have a maximum of 2 HQ squads, each consisting of one Master, one Chaplain, one Librarian, and the command squad retinue.

Thats 12 models per squad. Its incredibly expensive, but legal.

That's also incorrect. You can have 2 HQ squads, each with 3 characters, which can have two chaplains or two librarians.

On a side note, I wonder if anybody has tried the double Fear the Darkness or Fury of the Ancients yet?

Right Ed, my bad.

My reading comprehension is perfectly fine, thank you. It doesn't say who can take a Command Squad, but when you can take a Command Squad.

So when do the rules allow you to take a Command Squad?

You may take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain.

So where do the rules allow you to take a Command Squad in any other situation?

mahu said:
On a side note, I wonder if anybody has tried the double Fear the Darkness or Fury of the Ancients yet?

Don't you mean four times? Two Librarians in two Command Squads. Nasty.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/21/2006 9:15 AM
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine, thank you. It doesn't say who can take a Command Squad, but when you can take a Command Squad.

So when do the rules allow you to take a Command Squad?

You may take a Command Squad to accompany a Commander, Librarian or Chaplain.

So where do the rules allow you to take a Command Squad in any other situation?

Space Marine Codex, page 27 pretty clearly shows that anything listed in the army list can be taken to fill the force org chart.

Your argument is contingent on the premise that the heading of "command squad" would over-ride that, but clearly it does not. Hence my slam on your reading skills. Because frankly, if you read that and see it as an exclusive list of the only times you may take the unit, you need some remedial reading instruction.

Well, I was only considering a sibgle command squad (Termie command squad with 2 Librarians and 2 Assault Cannons of coarse). I would think it would be harder to get two squads in range close enough to cause that many tests.

But you HAD to think of that Stu-Rat, huh?

Posted by mauleed on 04/21/2006 10:48 AM
Your argument is contingent on the premise that the heading of "command squad" would over-ride that, but clearly it does not.

Why not? Anything else in an army list entry will override the general rules, but this won't? It's no different than the sidebar for the Assassin that requires you have an Inquisitor to be fielded.

Additionally, the entire rules set is exclusive.  If it doesn't say that I can, then I can not.  That is one of the basic rules of the game.  Why is this one suddenly different?

Yeah Mahu, someone did try that. Remember the dude with the Drop Pod army in Tampa? I think he played Salamanders. He had a Librarian Command squad with two librarians. Both had fury and fear. Capt K

Posted By Ghaz on 04/21/2006 10:09 AM

Posted by mauleed on 04/21/2006 10:48 AM
Your argument is contingent on the premise that the heading of "command squad" would over-ride that, but clearly it does not.

Why not? Anything else in an army list entry will override the general rules, but this won't? It's no different than the sidebar for the Assassin that requires you have an Inquisitor to be fielded.

Additionally, the entire rules set is exclusive.  If it doesn't say that I can, then I can not.  That is one of the basic rules of the game.  Why is this one suddenly different?

My guess is because that is how mauleed wants to play, so he will argue it to death. Ghaz is correct, the same way a rhino can only be fielded as an attachement to a unit (because that is the only way it says it can be fielded) the command squad can only be fielded with a listed character.

mauleed, please do the premise and conclusion explination that is so obviously lets you field the unit alone. 

You can only take a rhino for a squad because it has no entry of its own (it is always described in a different way from the squads). A closer analogy would be a land raider. In the terminator entry it says you can buy a land raider for 5 termies as a ride (not taking up a HQ choice) or you could use the entry in the HS section and buy a seperate land raider for your army without the termies.

The command squad has a spesific entry in the codex hence most people's ruling on this.

Posted By CaptKaruthors on 04/21/2006 10:17 AM
Yeah Mahu, someone did try that. Remember the dude with the Drop Pod army in Tampa? I think he played Salamanders. He had a Librarian Command squad with two librarians. Both had fury and fear. Capt K

Really, how did it do, I can't for the life of me remember.

Posted By cypher on 04/21/2006 10:52 AM
You can only take a rhino for a squad because it has no entry of its own (it is always described in a different way from the squads). A closer analogy would be a land raider. In the terminator entry it says you can buy a land raider for 5 termies as a ride (not taking up a HQ choice) or you could use the entry in the HS section and buy a seperate land raider for your army without the termies.

The command squad has a spesific entry in the codex hence most people's ruling on this.

That is a better example, as it lists itself also being able to be taken alone.

Posted By Ghaz on 04/21/2006 10:09 AM

Posted by mauleed on 04/21/2006 10:48 AM
Your argument is contingent on the premise that the heading of "command squad" would over-ride that, but clearly it does not.

Why not? Anything else in an army list entry will override the general rules, but this won't? It's no different than the sidebar for the Assassin that requires you have an Inquisitor to be fielded.

Additionally, the entire rules set is exclusive.  If it doesn't say that I can, then I can not.  That is one of the basic rules of the game.  Why is this one suddenly different?

Sure, if there were a specific rule that said "you may only take a command squad with" you'd be right, the specific would rule the general. But there isn't. There's simply a rule that says you may take a character with it. Nothing in the wording is at all exclusive.

But here's the argument:

P1. Units listed in the space marine army list can be used to fill slots in the force org chart, SM Codex, page 27

P2. The command squad is listed as a unit in the space marine army list, SM Codex, page 29

Conclusion: you may take a command squad to fill a slot in the force org chart.

Of course you're going to counter with "But it says you may take it with a character". Which, again, doesn't make your point. If you can somehow get it to say "may only take" you'll be right. Good luck with that.

But please only rebutt with a refutation of some part of my argument or a proper argument of your own.